2011 Mugello MotoGP Post-Race Test Times: Stoner Smashes Lap Record

The Monday test after Mugello was one of the most eagerly-awaited tests in recent history, at least until it was announced that none of the factories would be testing their 1000cc bikes at Mugello. And so the test transmogrified into a fairly humdrum 800 affair, with Honda the only factory present, and even them only having a new swingarm and a few electronics to test. The extra day at Mugello saw Casey Stoner take nearly a quarter of a second off his pole record, getting well into the low 1'47s. He was followed closely by Marco Simoncelli, while Andrea Dovizioso ended the test as 3rd fastest, but nearly a quarter of a second off Stoner's time.

Despite the relative lack of novelty, there were still some entertainment to be found in the test. Apart from an altercation between Casey Stoner and Karel Abraham - Abraham accusing Stoner of having barged into him, Stoner denying it emphatically, the collision a result of Abraham trying to get a tow from Stoner, and Stoner backing off the throttle to prevent him from doing so - the test saw the first public outing of the BMW-powered Suter machine being tested by Marc VDS, the return of Sylvain Guintoli on a Pramac Ducati, and the first outing of Moto2 star Andrea Iannone on a MotoGP bike.

Guintoli is to replace the injured Loris Capirossi at the Sachsenring round of MotoGP, and probably also at Laguna Seca. Having now spent 3 years on Superbikes - first in BSB, then in World Superbikes - Guintoli needs a little time to get reacquainted with the MotoGP bike. He ended the day 1.3 seconds off his best lap time the last time he raced here at Mugello, back in 2008, but the bigger problem was that Guintoli was fully 5 seconds slower than Casey Stoner, and 3 seconds off the pace of fellow Pramac rider Randy de Puniet. Guintoli is in for a tough time in Germany, on the evidence of the Mugello test so far.

Perhaps even more worryingly, Guintoli was only fractionally ahead of Andrea Iannone, who was riding a MotoGP machine for the very first time. Iannone's Speed Master team is one of the teams accepted as a CRT entry for 2012, and was looking to get a feel for a MotoGP machine prior to entering the class next year. 

Iannone wasn't the only Moto2 rider taking to the track on a MotoGP machine: Marc VDS' Mika Kallio took the BMW-powered Suter out for its first fully public test against the 800s. The results are distinctly worrying for the viability of the CRT concept - or at least, for the viability of the current BMW and Suter project, more of which tomorrow - as the Suter lapped the track over 6.3 seconds off the pace of the 800cc MotoGP machines. The 1000s will be even faster - at Mugello, Ducati team boss Vito Guareschi revealed that simulations done by the Bologna factory calculated that their 2012 machine should be 0.5 seconds faster around Mugello than an 800, some four tenths of that difference coming along Mugello's front straight - making the Suter in its current form nearly seven seconds slower than the pace we might expect from a competitive 1000cc MotoGP machine. Kallio was only six tenths quicker on the 1000cc machine than he had been on his Honda CBR600 powered Moto2 bike (which probably makes at least 90 bhp less than the BMW Suter machine) in Sunday's race, and Kallio's time would have given him the 9th fastest lap of the Moto2 field. The CRT machines may have a future, but the BMW-based Suter may not be it.

Below are the times from the test (courtesy of MotoGP.com and GPOne.com), together with the fastest time from each rider during Sunday's race, as well as the difference between the two. The first "Diff" column is the difference between a rider's time and that set by Casey Stoner, the "Race Diff" column is the difference between the test time and the fastest lap from the race.

Pos Rider Bike Time Diff Best Race Lap Race Diff
1 Casey Stoner Honda 1:47.326   1:48.577 1.251
2 Marco Simoncelli Honda 1:47.422 0.096 1:48.833 1.411
3 Andrea Dovizioso Honda 1:48.061 0.735 1:48.678 0.617
4 Hector Barbera Ducati 1:48.837 1.511 1:49.468 0.631
5 Karel Abraham Ducati 1:48.950 1.624 1:49.731 0.781
6 Dani Pedrosa Honda 1:49.015 1.689 1:49.226 0.211
7 Alvaro Bautista Suzuki 1:49.199 1.873 1:49.448 0.249
8 Randy De Puniet Ducati 1:49.384 2.058 1:50.342 0.958
9 Hiroshi Aoyama Honda 1:49.423 2.097 1:49.791 0.368
10 Sylvain Guintoli+ Ducati 1:52.398 5.072    
11 Andrea Iannone* Ducati 1:52.409 5.083 1:53.560 1.151
12 Mika Kallio* Suter/BMW 1:53.668 6.342 1:54.326 0.658

+ Guintoli did not race, so has no race time to compare to
* Race lap set on Moto2 machine

2011
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Total votes: 98

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Comments

David, you often express a strong and subtle command of irony and idiom of not only the the English language but it's ragged American cousin.

So I have to ask.

Was referring to the Ducati's 2012 Mugello simulations as 'done by the Bologna factory' a conscious prod of Ducati or just an emanation from your subconscious? We yanks often refer to people we take with a grain of salt as full of bologna, so........ I wonder what their simulations say they should be doing with the GP11? 11.1? Didn't Hoffman tweet Rossi did a 1:48.5 on the GP12? That's still 1.2 slower than Casey was today. Did he mean .5 faster then _their_ 800 or than the _fastest_ 800? It is a big difference.

Great stuff regardless.

Are Suter/BMW results really that bad? We should only compare them to the Friday test times as this is the 4th (sort of) day of running for the 800 teams. On a newly paved track they have no knowledge on with a rider that didn't make the grade in the GP class. Only 2-3 sec from the back of the 800 pack. Did MarkVDS really think they'd be knocking on the podium? I'm thinking top 10 best in the rain, compete for 12-15 in the dry but the cost of entry would be much lower. Are any factories even willing to make more satellite or even factory bikes? That would be one positive for the rule change. How much hassle is Honda going through making various revisions of parts to provide 4 factory bikes, 1 semi factory bike, and 1 satellite bike? Aoyama must feel really appreciated.

Chris
http://moto2-usa.blogspot.com/

Total votes: 151

The Ducati factory is in Bologna. When writing about Ducati (or Yamaha, or Honda even) I try to avoid using the name of the factory over and over and over again. So I try to mix things up a little, and used Bologna factory instead of Ducati, without any meaning behind it.

When I do take a subtle dig at a particular factory, I hope it's much more obvious than that...

Total votes: 134

First off ok, it's only Kallio second time on the bike and he progressed a lot during the day so probably another day would have seen further improvement, I understand it's not the ultimate performance that you can get from this bike.

But considering that compared to the Suter Moto2 it has 90 more hp, carbon brakes and Bridgestones, Kallio being only half a second ahead of his own Moto2 time, and barely making it in the top10 Moto2 race fastest laps is worrying.

He is also likely to be slower than the superbikes testing here, but he has a (probably) lighter bike, better brakes, better tires and a prototype frame.

I know it's still work in progress but hardly the first outing of the bike, it's hard to understand why they are still slower than a Moto2 bike?

Kallio has one year of experience in MotoGP and even if he didn't live up to most people's expectations, he was never so far off the pace.

Maybe if Haslam rides it a few laps tomorrow he could relate to his BMW superbike and tell them what the problems are?

Total votes: 141

This is a very early stage of development knock out run to gauge performance against the current GP crop. Whilst it's all very well having all the bells and whistles (as well as an extra 90+ HP over a Moto2 machine) the difficult part is bringing all these components together in a harmonious package that works. Least not the complexity of the electronics (I hope they don't have BMW's in house kit). Remember they have no data to go on - building a bike and electronic platform from scratch. Early days, and I think we can read next to nothing into the lap times achieved by the Suter at Mugello. To condemn CRT's on the basis of this test is plain silly.

Total votes: 141

It's not a great time but for what are still mostly shakedown tests, it's not bad. And it's just one rider. Over time I expect they'll get closer to the factory bikes at the back of the grid. And the excitement starts when one of the riders seems to be able to get it right and starts to upset the natural order of things.

Total votes: 143

I for one hope to see CRT bikes on the grid next year, mixing it up for the 12th place, giving a chance to young riders and new teams.

However, how can you consider "not bad" the fact that the Moto1 is slower than, not 1, but 8 Moto2 riders during Sunday's race, including 4 Suter Moto2 riders?

I didn't expect them to break the track record, not even to be at the level of a satellite Ducati (worst bike on the grid) yet but slower than its Moto2 counterparts with a Honda engine 90-100 hp down on power???

They've been testing this bike on track for 10 months and are yet to even better their own Moto2 bikes' times?

Total votes: 150

I'm presuming they were on G.P spec Bridgestone rubber - perhaps for the first time? And we all know how notorious these hoops are and how sensitive they are to set-up changes - getting them to, and keeping them in, their optimum temperature range. So I would suggest the 'stones are a big factor here and probably not the quickest rubber for the bike right now. But obviously it's the rubber they need to find a way to make work.

Secondly Kallio I believe is the first GP quality rider they have had on board. Ducati in particular have discovered for the past few years that their GP men were able to push the machine into trouble zones their test riders didn't know existed.

Finally as you mention Frenchie the Moto2 machines have a 90hp deficit and are running slightly quicker times. This point serves to emphasise just how much a part the chassis plays in getting a bike around the track. Obviously Suter are not getting all that power to the ground properly with the 1000 yet. Remember the Moto2 machines were slower than SSK bikes when teams started testing them - I doubt that is the case now despite their wheezy CBR600 engines.

Suter are right at the start of the development curve. Trial and error. It's a tall task taking on factories with very mature designs and terabytes of data, and we will not really know just how competitive these CRT's can be until 2013 in my opinion. More power to them and the other brave CRT's that have entered.

Total votes: 132

I don't disagree with you at all.
But still, they've been testing for almost a year and are still behind their own Moto2. They are in the second half of their development cycle, 2012 first GP starts in less than 9 months...
It was not Kallio first test and they've been using Bridgestones since February or March 2011.
Perhaps not enough trial? Certainly too much error.

Just really disappointed, I like the idea of CRT but I fear that the concept is more and more disappearing into oblivion every time the BMW-Suter turns an uncompetitive wheel...they are the most prepared, tested and developed CRT, when the other CRT see that what are they gonna do?

Once again, given the performances of the Moto2 and of WSBK there is a good chance that CRT could be successful battling around 12th place, the only problem is that the test times have been telling a different story since the end of 2010...

Total votes: 142

If this is the state of the CRT 'Moto1' machines when they arrive at Qatar 2012, then you'd be right. But that is not the case here.

To expect that they be at the level of, what so many call a race winning machine in the hands of The Prophet Stoner, the Ducati is absolutely unreasonable.

Total votes: 156

Has two years of MotoGP experience.

He should be capable of better times but who knows what engine they have in that bike? It could be a stock engine from the showroom, one with a supersport level of tune or a full on WSBK package for all we know.

Total votes: 131

so is it basically faster to be on a wsbk specced bike than crt bike?
max posted 1.51.1 in his mugello test earlier this year with camier closely behind.

Total votes: 143

Interesting stat. Not sure if Biaggi was on the new surface, but it shows the difference between a MotoGP bike and WSBK on a real handling circuit. Almost 4 seconds.

Total votes: 138

You are comparing the results of a top rider on a big dollar factory team with a back of the pack rider on a private development effort. Not really a good comparison. That's the main reason why factories (Aprilia, BMW) have to enter with 6 engines and 21l of fuel if they want to play. The development resources they have related to their production bikes allow them to do the lion's share of development work at minimal costs, only giving the bikes to the pro rides when they are 95%+.

Yes the Suter looked faster on paper: less weight, carbon brakes, but bikes don't perform on paper. They need a lot of time and many smart people to be able to perform at their full potential.

I wonder what else Suter has up his sleeve. They have not had a successful Motogp bike development effort yet. Although they are well known and one of the only high level chassis vendors still in existence, from the Ilmor to the Kaw to the Petronas they have not built a bike that has proven to be competitive.

Chris
http://moto2-usa.blogspot.com/

Total votes: 133

Is there a reason the other factories didn't test? It seems Ducati are begging for test time right now. Are they able to take these days at other times and other places? Confused.

Total votes: 139

Why not test the current bike then?

Total votes: 153

Ducati have already used up a bunch of their 800 tests. Given that the GP11.1 is really just a de-stroked GP12, they may prefer to do GP12 tests, but away from prying eyes (and ears).

Total votes: 130

Rossi, for whatever reason, initially stated that they wouldn't be testing the 800cc at Mugello because they were already in engine preservation mode. I'm not sure what the situation is over at Ducati (well, apart from the obvious) but it could have just been smoke and mirrors and speaking in riddles, or there could be something I'm missing.

Which more often than not is the case.

Total votes: 133

is that since test engines do not count in the 6 engines allocated for the season, what Rossi meant is that the factory urgently made 2 "GP11.1" for his use at Assen but does not have currently other engines from this spec.
Therefore he would have to run the test with his own race engines which is out of question, especially considering his dramatic engine situation with already 5 engines used (of which only 2 are usable on the GP11.1).

Given that the bike, which is basically a GP12 with a 800cc engine, is not ready yet for Hayden, but that the factory rolls out 4 GP12 at each private test, the limiting factor is likely to be the GP11.1 engines, not the GP11.1/GP12 frames.

So maybe all that Rossi meant was that he was currently riding with the only 2 GP11.1 engines produced and still usable so far?

Total votes: 144

Well, if that is the case, then that would make some sense.

If Rossi's race bikes have the only GP11.1 engines currently in existence, then you sure wouldn't want to test on them.

Given their dire situation, until they have enough built to allocate test engines, you'd either test on the GP12, or... not test.

Total votes: 150

Ducati could be the one rumored to have acquired the software.

Rossi said a few weeks ago that they would not be testing the GP12 at the official test.
They already have tons of data on the track and would have been able to compare their own times with Honda and Yamaha, which were still considering testing their "1000" by that time.
No interest for them to test as the same time as everyone when they can go there so easily by themselves.

Also, has anyone considered that Honda and Yamaha not testing at Mugello could be a way to "protest" against Ducati rolling the GP11.1 after extensive testing at Mugello?

Total votes: 150

Apparently so. Mitigating circumstances there certainly are,but the 800's are so dialled in already, it is less conceiveable that a CRT next year will latch onto a factory 800 by any manner of means. The 990's had the drop on the 500 2 strokes,but at a few circuits the 2 - strokes were in with a shout. CRT I fear,not.
Which raises a question. Capacity to be used by factory teams next year ?
I guess the answer lies somewhere between performance gain and cost.
For the factory big hitters,within the rules and 81mm bore,fuel limitations and rolling mass,I guess around 880cc will be optimum. Nicely rounded 4 x 220cc pots. A nicely rounded 10 % increase in capacity and consequent cost saving.
Merely multiply and/or devide all the data accrued this year by 10%.
A 10% increase is within the realms of preventing chassis issues becomming exponential.
Huge catch up situation for CRT 1000cc looms. Speaking of which,don't burn that thing on your exhaust pipe. Tends to cut revs even in Mugello.

Total votes: 129

Can somebody write down the comparo of the last of the 2-stroke 250's against the later moto-2 machines?

I remember they were slower than the 250's when they first appeared and thei did worked it up, right?

Total votes: 135