Racing circuit pantheon

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Sat May 20, 2017 2:59 am

Welcome to a new topic.
The suggestion for the list include; Jerez, Assen, the Isle of Man TT, Mugello, Phillip Island.

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Sat May 20, 2017 5:18 am

How could I forget Der Nordschleife!!!

So this is where we are at. the list is; Le Mans, the Isle of Man, Indianapolis, Jerez, Assen, Monza, Phillip Island, Mt Panorama, Suzuka, Der Nordschleife, Daytona,

Silverstone, Mosport, Mugello maybes

?so what about Daytona beach? Land speed record as well. no. Obviously the name is racing circuit pantheon. And many thanks to Funsize for the word Pantheon.

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Sun May 21, 2017 9:48 am

I had a bit of a think & came up with a few more candidates, Brands Hatch, Cemetery circuit N.Z., such a great name for a racetrack. Donington over Silverspoon? Estoril Portugal, Termas, Interlagos, Rio or somewhere in south America.I quite like the old track in Rio circuito Nelson Piquet, MotoGp went there years ago. Kyalami RSA, Laguna Seca? Macau, Monaco/Monte Carlo I know it has always been cars but still a classic circuit. Sir cute Paul Ricard, Salzburgring, the old track in Austria very fast, no really fast. Istanbul? Watkins Glen.

I am just throwing them out there to see what people think.

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Sun May 21, 2017 11:22 am

Hello Mikl Law thanks for letting me ride your bike regards Steve R

JanBros · Post by **JanBros** » Mon May 22, 2017 12:53 am

chatting with yourself ?

Post by **Kropotkin** » Mon May 22, 2017 2:22 am

When I have a moment, I will be in here to comment. First, I have to finish work on Le Mans.

CLX · Post by **CLX** » Mon May 22, 2017 2:35 am

1st group: Jerez, Mugello, Assen and Phillip Island. Championship-wise they are worth the same 25 points as the others, but when it comes to heritage, fan engagement, exciting racing and genuinely terrific circuit layouts, they stand alone and are MotoGP's backbone to me.

2nd group: Termas Rio Hondo, Sachsenring, Brno, Silverstone, Motorland Aragon. I love them for all different reasons and think they are terrific additions to the calendar.

The others circuits I like, more or less, I just don't love.

Off-calendar: Brands Hatch and Suzuka. Too good to be true, and truely unsafe.

edit: I ranked only the circuits MotoGP currently visits, except for Brands and Suzuka, obviuously.

bikermike · Post by **bikermike** » Mon May 22, 2017 2:01 pm

what do you define as a "circuit"? (the IOM TT is run on the "Mountain Course", not a "Circuit"). Does it have to be used now? What does it need for the Pantheon?

Even though it isn't used for mass-start racing, and hasn't been a grand prix circuit for a long time, for it's sheer variety, speed, and being the last of the great public road circuits, I'd include it

Monza?
Phillip Island always produces good races.
The one in Argentina (Termas del Honda?)
Assen
Brno

If someone mentioned Brands, then I want to add in Cadwell Park

small voice: I quite like Sepang too

JanBros · Post by **JanBros** » Mon May 22, 2017 3:47 pm

Francorchamps, with Suzuka in second. the rest is in a lower league.

E-racer · Post by **E-racer** » Tue May 23, 2017 2:16 am

hungararong

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Thu May 25, 2017 7:05 am

TT stands for tourist trophy. racers ride around the Island. If you go around & come back to where ya started its a Circuit, whether its called a race track or a raceway, speedway, Autodromo, circuito, piste whatever.

I see what you are posting CLX but I don't agree. Some of these great tracks do not exist any more. But I would still put them in the Pantheon.
I realize nobody in Gp racing is ever going to race at Suzuka, Mt Panorama, Nordschleife, Spa Francorchamps etc. They are still classic circuits IMHO.

BikerMike, I am happy to accept Brno. I propose the real Catalunya MonteMelo. Without the stupid chicane!!

Sepang, I agree it is a great track, Love it on the video game. I am reluctant to put ANY Herman Tilke track on this list. though it is a good one.

E-Racer I don't know about Hungaroring. It was the location of Sir Mick Doohan's first grand prix win so maybe? what do we reckon?

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post. regards Apical

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Thu May 25, 2017 7:08 am

sorry JanBros I spelled it wrong

CLX · Post by **CLX** » Fri May 26, 2017 6:49 pm

I didn't want to rate tracks in which I never saw them (MotoGP/WSBK) actually race.

I have never been a fan of Sepang. Races have been good but it's a typical Tilke cookie cutter packed with slow corners. 1, 2, 4, 9, 11, 14 and 15. It's more than enough slow corners for me.

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:38 am

I have just learn that a good mate raced at the MACAU Gp back in the seventies.

Mike Parer informs me he started 30th & finished 6th. I am impressed. on a Yamaha td2c, with skinny tyres & drum brakes. totally awesome

So that does it for me. I had considered MACAU GUIA circuit as you can see in my earlier comment.

In honor of my mate mike the bike I propose MACAU should ascend to the Pantheon of Road Racing circuits.

It is still there If you are game to take it on. Not sure I would be.

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:07 pm

Dear Kropotkin I would like to discuss the classic tracks with the forum. I was pleased to see this comment "When I have a moment, I will be in here to comment. First, I have to finish work on Le Mans." I can wait until you have the time. I am interested to read any comment you would like to share.

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:05 am

Thanks everybody.
We are getting a bit of a list together.

this is it at the moment, enjoy.

Assen, Aragon

Brands Hatch, Brno, Bathurst Mt Panorama,

Cadwell Park, Catalunya

Daytona, Donington

Estoril

Francorchamps, (Spa-Francorchamps, )

Hockenheim der Nordschleife, what about the sudschleife ? where Troy Bayliss won his first ever WSBK race? Hungaroring

Indianapolis, Imola, Interlagos, Isle of Man TT,

Jerez,

Kyalami,

Laguna Seca, Le Mans,

Macau, Monza, Motegi, Misano, Mugello,

circuit Nelson Piquet

Osterreichring, Oulton Park

Paul Ricard, Phillip Island,

Salzburgring, Sachsenring, Sepang (SIC), Silverstone, Spa - Francochamps, Suzuka

Termas Rio Hondo, Turkey Istanbul park

Welcome Phakisa RSA

Buddh, Mosport, Watkins Glen maybes.

Er, that is getting somewhat largish. Bring on the critics to cut & cull this list.

brigdonia · Post by **brigdonia** » Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:40 pm

Ok, i'm pretty much going to copy paste (sorry) my answers from a previous thread in which I asked what would your ideal calendar look like, and what would be the fantasy from any era (I was working with the framework of no road-racing, only closed circuit tracks). So relevant. Also having been to Jerez and Mugello this year for Motogp I would definitely reiterate that both are pantheon worthy

Anyway...

brigdonia wrote: heres mine:

1. Qatar Phillip Island. I like the layout but no elevation change or crowd make this a damp squib. PI is ace and would be the right time of year for sun?
2. Sepang. Same track. It's great. Moved up for logistical reasons after PI.
3. Motegi Suzuka. I feel like this would be a popular change. Suzuka is an amazing test and separates the men from the boys. Motegi is stop/go rubbish.
4. Austin Laguna Seca. Austin is like a stress position, it doesn't flow. Sure Laguna is pokey but it has character and if 3 classes went there it would be ace.
5. Argentina. Same track. Has provided entertaining racing thus far!
6. Jerez. Great track, great racing. Simples.
7. Le Mans Paul Ricard. Le Mans has been ok, although can only think of '03 as remarkable racing. Paul Ricardo could be hilarious with that straight!
8. Mugello. Whoever designed this track should be given a medal. Should never be left off the calendar.
9. Austria Redbull Ring - I'm willing to keep this one more year as last year was good. However is a shadow of itself - see video link below. First to be cut.
10. Brno. Great track, great racing, same as Jerez.
11. Sachsenring. Sure it's tiny but has soooo much character, the elevation change is unreal!
12. Assen. It may be butchered now but it has the greatest final set of corners of any race track. Should never be off the calendar. EVER.
13. Spa-Francorchamp. It has character. Terrifying fast-as-big-as-your-testes-character. Would love to see it if it could remain unchanged and safe.
14. Silverstone Brands Hatch. After Spa we wouldn't need another super fast track and Silverstone is flat and lacks atmosphere. Brands has both!
15. Aragon Estoril. Too many Spanish tracks and I remember Estoril providing great racing.
16. Turkey. I remember this providing great racing and it has some cracking corners - the quad apex and faux-eau-rogue were breathtaking.
17. Misano Monza. Misano is a narrow track in a concrete amphitheatre. Monza is amazing. I thought about Imola without garden hose kerbs, but MONZA
18. Valencia Barcelona. If Spain has a big enough market for 2 races then it should be these 2, simples.

Honourable mentions: I would possibly scrap the French round entirely and replace it with Spa, freeing up another slot for maybe Buddh - the Indian racetrack. Sure it's a Tilke track but it has elevation change and some fast corners, and the Indians sure love motorbikes! Hungaroring is also intriguing although maybe not conducive to good racing. Imola, Portimao, and Cadwell Park also have their pluses (seeing Motogp bikes over the mountain would be hilarious). I'm not a fan of the Chang (Thailand) layout.

From the fantasy pool of anywhere in time I currently have the following:

Phakisa, South Africa, 2004 - I've watched the races from here and we had some great ones, layout has some flow.
Assen - WITH the northern loop, 2004. Perfection. If it was somewhere warmer with stable climate it would probably be heaven?!
Hockenheim 1960s without the Ost chicane. The Ost as one bend, one manly-man-hairs-on-your-chest-bend.
Nelson Picquet Autodromo 2004 - It's a lot of fun on the playstation, and has some great corners in it.
Barcelona 2015 - The post Salom (RIP) layout change was alright last year but it's changed the hallmark of the track quite a bit, I preferred the older one.
Osterreichring, Austria 1975-95 layout. IT WAS THE PHILLIP ISLAND OF EUROPE WHY DID THEY BUTCHER IT I know it has too many wheels but watch - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxUXpnG ... freload=10

I thought about the Nordscleife but I think that's too insane

kenup283 · Post by **kenup283** » Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:45 am

I've found this website intresting and if traveling to some of these places could add to the trip.

http://www.circuitsofthepast.nl/en-US/

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:55 am

But Brigdonia Too Insane is just perfect for a race track.
Yes Kenup283 that is a good one i have found some other resources that are quite useful, handy for research before my radio show. Sadly Trackpedia seems gone.

http://www.silhouet.com/motorsport/tracks/tracks.html

http://www.gdecarli.it/php/index.php?var1=2&var2=2

http://www.the-fastlane.co.uk/racingcircuits/

Looks like trackpedia does not exist at the moment

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:52 am

brigdonia you write " Phillip Island. I like the layout but no elevation change or crowd make this a damp squib" I beg to differ. Come with me for a walk around the track. The Wayne Gardner straight undulates a bit, it is downhill into Doohan corner, southern loop has complex camber & is downhill on the way out. from Siberia we go up gently thru the hayshed corner, the uphill gets steeper into Lukey Heights then down to MG corner. Remember V.R.46 passing Loris & Troy Bayliss into MG on the first lap in 2004? there is a little bit of up & down through the last two corners. Plenty of elevation changes in my opinion. Visit Phillip Island! Make the pilgrimage. Ride down & have a ride around the circuit. You can stay at Richard's place, no problem. Have a look at one of Casey Stoner's many victories at The Island on video & tell me how much elevation change Phillip Island has. I reckon the crowd can be fun as well, the superbike weekend has a better vibe because we can ride the bikes into & around the spectator areas.

Kropotkin, still waiting to read your input

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:50 am

Kropotkin, I understand that Donington is not your favourite circuit. I think the choice between Donnybrook & Silverspoon is getting closer & if MSV upgrade the facilities to a high standard for the motorcycles, Donington should be better than a bumpy Silverstone run by the car people. Or resurface Silverstone & fix the bumps. then silverstone would be fine for the bikes.

We know that Donington is not perfect. I recall a comment regarding the Melbourne loop. Imho the fun part of Doni is from the start, redgate, Hollywood, craner curves, the old hairpin at the bottom of the hill, Schwantz curve 260-270kays, into McLeans, Coppice. the boring bit is the back straight past the ugly big sheds, the Foggy esses, Melbourne loop, the final corner. But, having said that, the second part of the circuit is not so bad. The back straight is fast, braking into the Foggy esses is a good passing opportunity, as is braking downhill into Melbourne loop. Even the Melbourne loop is challenging, downhill entry, double apex off camber then goes uphill on the exit. Goddard's', the final corner it is a bloody good corner as well. Almost everyone who is anyone in Grand prix motorcycle racing has fallen off at Goddard's.

Don't let me get started on the history of Donington.

I believe that Donington must stay on the list as it is part of the pantheon.

CLX · Post by **CLX** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:35 am

Apical, I know I'm biaed for Silverstone, but I don't even remember a single terrific race at Donington. Granted I haven't watched MotoGP for very long (2004/05 ish), but I never saw a great race there. I also do not remember people who mentioned a race there as a classic MotoGP race. There were good, wild and wet races, but nothing as a classic.

So I don't dispute it as a fan favourite (just as Silverstone is to me), but I can't place it in a pantheon. It might not even be the best circuit in the UK. Right off the bat, Donington might not even be better than Brands Hatch and Oulton Park. Or Silverstone.

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 9:38 am

OK CLX I see your comment. I was think Silverstone & Donington have both held Bike Gps. the standard of those two is a bit higher than the rest of the circuits.
I know there are a LOT of tracks in the U.K. I have included a few already & am happy to take on board any suggestions you have. i.e. Brands, Cadwell, Donington & yes Silverstone. Also Yes to Oulton park. since you mention it. CLX did you post "Off-calendar: Brands Hatch and Suzuka. Too good to be true, and truely unsafe."
But later suggest "Donington might not even be better than Brands Hatch" Brands Hatch is a good racetrack. Not sure how we decide what should be in the pantheon. it is not my decision. I simply enjoy the topic.
Erm, memory vague, recollect last century 500cc motorcycle grand prix. Rainey, Schwantz, Doohan, Gardner, Chili, Christian Sarron, Randy Mamola back in them days racing was good at Donington. Simon Crafar on a Yamaha 500, with a Dunlop tyre on the front But a different Brand of tyre on the rear! like 1998 or so?

Sarron won the 2500cc Gp in 1985 at Donington. on a Yamaha tz250.

I don't really know enough about the tracks in the UK so I am planning a trip next northern summer. will try to get to as many tracks & track days as possible.

Apical · Post by **Apical** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:40 am

Classic races at Donington. Ralf Waldmann in 2000 on an Aprilia 250 came from a long way back. Almost a lap down & made a good race, picked up a good result. the race went right to the last lap, final corner, very tasty!

CLX · Post by **CLX** » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:47 pm

Apical wrote:(...)Not sure how we decide what should be in the pantheon. it is not my decision. I simply enjoy the topic.(...)

I love this topic as well.

IMO, I think we should look after fast and challenging circuits which lend themselves to terrific races and also please fans who watch races from the circuit or home.

Mugello and Phillip Island.

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