State of world superbikes

Talk about the World Superbike series run by FGSport. Including World Superbikes, World Supersport, European Superstock, etc.
kenup283
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by kenup283 »

Mikesbytes wrote:How do the specs of the new Ducati compare with the competitors? Yes I know there's a lot more to it than specs?

http://www.mcnews.com.au/2019-ducati-panigale-v4-r/

I found the following an intresting statment particularly in how it applies to the initial rev limit setting per the rules.

"221hp is on offer at 15,250rpm, while a full-racing Ducati Performance exhaust by Akrapovič boosts power to 234hp at 15,500rpm."

Rules excerpt under Perfirmance Balancing:

"The initial rev limit will be the dynamometer measured rev limit of 3rd & 4th gear averaged, plus 3% or 1100 rpm above the dyno measured max horsepower rpm of a production machine, whichever is lower."


So 15,500x1.03= almost 16k ! While not cheating this will put them way ahead of the other 4cyl machines who the highest are currently at 14.7k RPM and even more room above Kawi who's at 14,100 rpm currently.

With increment adjustments only after 3 rounds and in 250 rpm increments they will be able to keep that advantage over a 13 rounds callendar for the entire first year and half way into the next season after that just to come to parity with where the kawasaki is at now.

kenup283
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by kenup283 »

Elton wrote:It needs dumbing down. Electronic development is the area that creates the most imbalance, whilst also diluting the visual spectacle of actually watching a rider wrestle the bike to get the most out of it. Rea's ZX10 circulating like it's on rails might be devastatingly effective but I'd prefer to bring back the exit wheelies and slides. In a nutshell aftermarket electronics are hugely expensive whilst ruining the racing and spectacle... WTF haven't they been banned yet?? BSB proves that it's not a safety issue.

Does anyone actually know what the '19 tech regs are? Had a bit of a look and not sure if they're finalised yet.

You can see 2019 changes remarked already in the current 2018 rules, link below. I suggest giving them a read over. Lots of what you and others are writing about as suggestions above are exactly the changes that DORNA brought in already and have been part of the rules for a few years now. It's not makin any differnece. Actually I could make the case it has only seperated the field further.

http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/down ... o_cache/1/

Regarding other comment about normalizing with other national series, MotoAmerica went that route to align with the current WSBK but have not kept up in last years changes such as rev limits and consessions points but they came along as far as air restrictors rather than weight balanced and the SBK spec & price capped ECU kits for example from preceding years before. Too many changes year after year can be hard for teams to keep up with and just invites those who can spend more to adapt quicker.

Elton
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Elton »

kenup283 wrote:
Elton wrote:It needs dumbing down. Electronic development is the area that creates the most imbalance, whilst also diluting the visual spectacle of actually watching a rider wrestle the bike to get the most out of it. Rea's ZX10 circulating like it's on rails might be devastatingly effective but I'd prefer to bring back the exit wheelies and slides. In a nutshell aftermarket electronics are hugely expensive whilst ruining the racing and spectacle... WTF haven't they been banned yet?? BSB proves that it's not a safety issue.

Does anyone actually know what the '19 tech regs are? Had a bit of a look and not sure if they're finalised yet.

You can see 2019 changes remarked already in the current 2018 rules, link below. I suggest giving them a read over. Lots of what you and others are writing about as suggestions above are exactly the changes that DORNA brought in already and have been part of the rules for a few years now. It's not makin any differnece. Actually I could make the case it has only seperated the field further..
Thanks for the link.

WSBK hasn't addressed the main problem with electronics, as the software peramaters are still free as far as I can tell. They have to use an 'approved' ECU but the electronic boffins are free to upload whatever sorcerous algorithms they like. So once again, whoever pays for the best electronic sorcerers win. That's light years from having a true control ECU with no TC as in BSB, or having the electronics included in the homologation items.

I see there is a proposed amendment:

Deletion considered for 2019: A DWO/FIM approved “Superstock
1000” kit model plus DWO/FIM approved data logger. See
Art. 2.4.9.2.



Art 2.4.9.2 just says 'For review in 2018'. The Superstock electronic regs state

For 2019: The Superstock Kit ECU hardware must be the original
street ECU hardware with a change of firmware and software allowed,
respecting all the above regulations.


So even in Superstock they can shell the ECU and do software 'updates' throughout the season.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Mikesbytes »

Rev limits, I'm wondering how they are going to fit in the new Ducati V4?

2018 rules, doesn't seem to mention the number of cylinders
2.4.3.3 Rev limit
The manufacturer specific rev limit will be adjusted in increments of
250 rpm (up or down).
The rev limit will be controlled by the manufacturers software and will
be monitored by the FIM/DWO approved rev-logger (see 2.4.9.1). Over
rev because of downshift will be ignored. ECU Hard limiter must be set
to the WSBK specified rev limit.
WSBK Initial rev-limit
Brand Proposed
Aprilia 14700
BMW 14700
Ducati 12400
Honda 14300
Kawasaki 14100
MV Agusta 14700
Suzuki 14700
Yamaha 14700
My signature isn't particularly interesting

kenup283
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by kenup283 »

The new Ducati rev limit will be by calculation as it is a new redesigned engine. You have to look a few lines up on the preceding page in the rules to see this. The rules also say updated engines of same basic type will contiue from prior season limit.

"Updated machines with the same basic engine design will continue with the manufacturers previous rev limit. Any new machines entering with a redesigned engine will have their rev limit set by calculation."

"Each season will begin with the same rev limits as the previous season finished."


So crutially no matter what any of the others bring to the table next year they are stuck where they are unless they build an entirley diffent bike. Kawasaki can put in all the titanium valves, reatainers and special springs they want but it will just be an upgrade and not a redesign. They all will be significatntly down on power to Ducati for a good long while.

This is bound to piss some people off and make some headlines as that starts to sink in so who knows what gets cussed and discussed or changed before hand but that's how it looks right now anyway.

Honda got particularly screwed when the rev limits came out as their typical philosophy to build a more usable and broad powerband into thier street bikes rather than chasing peak power was turned against them and they are now hand capped significantly just for making their peak power at lower revs. Priviosly a team could just change out some cams and do some simple head work and fix such factory compromises. All this is just example to how restticive rules focued on run what you've been given versus what you can do to improve it will keep only the field appart longer.

kenup283
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by kenup283 »

Elton wrote:WSBK hasn't addressed the main problem with electronics, as the software peramaters are still free as far as I can tell. They have to use an 'approved' ECU but the electronic boffins are free to upload whatever sorcerous algorithms they like. So once again, whoever pays for the best electronic sorcerers win. That's light years from having a true control ECU with no TC as in BSB, or having the electronics included in the homologation items.
Software is not frozen in WSBK, but it is not a free for all either. All software, firmware, analysis tools must be provided with the standard ECU kit within the 8k€ price cap and software must be from the FIM/Dorna approved software list. Factory teams can develop it further but must make it available to their customer teams free of charge when the do and include their startegies and settings as updates at various points throughout the seasson along with it as well.

You can also see in the ducati specs how the non R version has electronic susspension but the homologation special does not. This is because that's now banned from WSBK as is ABS. So you're looking at more advanced electronic controls in the factory street bikes but is it still more than BSB of course it is. And like anything else the teams who can put the most effort into it get the most out.

As for the note about STK that is more tied to the elimination of a ECU hardware and software standard kits for superstock in 2019 and a switch to what that manufacture provided on the street bike only. Likewise as you noted the a Manufacture can update the software as they go, it is not frozen, but they must make it abaible to all their customers simultaneoulsy free of charge when they do. Similar to how SBK is described.

"For 2019: The Superstock Kit ECU hardware must be the original street ECU hardware with a change of firmware and software allowed, respecting all the above regulations."

Vmax666
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Vmax666 »

I would like to see what yamaha are doing extra next year
With all the other manufactures making changes yamaha need to make a big step up for next year
I hope Suzuki do get involved again next year as speculated in the press
The ducati does look good and I hope it performs as good

Elton
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Elton »

kenup283 wrote:
Elton wrote:WSBK hasn't addressed the main problem with electronics, as the software peramaters are still free as far as I can tell. They have to use an 'approved' ECU but the electronic boffins are free to upload whatever sorcerous algorithms they like. So once again, whoever pays for the best electronic sorcerers win. That's light years from having a true control ECU with no TC as in BSB, or having the electronics included in the homologation items.
Software is not frozen in WSBK, but it is not a free for all either. All software, firmware, analysis tools must be provided with the standard ECU kit within the 8k€ price cap and software must be from the FIM/Dorna approved software list. Factory teams can develop it further but must make it available to their customer teams free of charge when the do and include their startegies and settings as updates at various points throughout the seasson along with it as well.
Its fine in theory for the factory team to have to make their electronic advancements available to private teams, but in practice I doubt a private team has the resources to understand and institute the strategies the factory team are employing race by race. And of course if you're running a different machine the data is useless anyway.

Let me ask you - what purpose does it serve to have factories spending big on aftermarket electronics? Wouldn't it be better for consumers if manufacturers were forced to improve the standard hardware on their road legal machines in order to win races? For the life of me I can't see why electronics haven't been outlawed already as they contribute nothing to the racing. As a viewer I couldn't care less what algorithms or software advancements have been instituted from one race to the next. Where Ironically I would actually find it half interesting if they had to use the electronic suite the bike comes stock with. But the main thing I want to see us close racing, and I think electronics are a barrier to that which is why they're slowly being phased out. It's just taking far too long!

bikermike
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by bikermike »

I think there is a tension in thee ideas you put out there

"Let me ask you - what purpose does it serve to have factories spending big on aftermarket electronics?" (1) to win races, (2) to develop technologies for the road

"Wouldn't it be better for consumers if manufacturers were forced to improve the standard hardware on their road legal machines in order to win races?" The on-bike electronics on road bikes is developing year-on-year is surely unarguable? I think they are developed on the track for the road, not vice-versa"

" For the life of me I can't see why electronics haven't been outlawed already as they contribute nothing to the racing." - (1) because they are being developed for the road, (2)they allow factories to win races. That's what racers do. I'd say they haven't been outlawed for point (1)

"As a viewer I couldn't care less what algorithms or software advancements have been instituted from one race to the next. Where Ironically I would actually find it half interesting if they had to use the electronic suite the bike comes stock with." I'm not sure you'd see any difference

"But the main thing I want to see us close racing, and I think electronics are a barrier to that which is why they're slowly being phased out. It's just taking far too long!" but then (1) they wouldn't be able to develop the road-going kit, and (b) the bikes would be more heavily-modified from the road-going bikes.

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WorldSBK
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by WorldSBK »

bikermike wrote: " For the life of me I can't see why electronics haven't been outlawed already as they contribute nothing to the racing." - (1) because they are being developed for the road, (2)they allow factories to win races. That's what racers do. I'd say they haven't been outlawed for point (1)

"As a viewer I couldn't care less what algorithms or software advancements have been instituted from one race to the next. Where Ironically I would actually find it half interesting if they had to use the electronic suite the bike comes stock with." I'm not sure you'd see any difference
That's one of the reason why I also like to watch the STK1000 category and other SuperStock races :D
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Elton
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Elton »

WorldSBK wrote:
bikermike wrote: " For the life of me I can't see why electronics haven't been outlawed already as they contribute nothing to the racing." - (1) because they are being developed for the road, (2)they allow factories to win races. That's what racers do. I'd say they haven't been outlawed for point (1)

"As a viewer I couldn't care less what algorithms or software advancements have been instituted from one race to the next. Where Ironically I would actually find it half interesting if they had to use the electronic suite the bike comes stock with." I'm not sure you'd see any difference
.
That's one of the reason why I also like to watch the STK1000 category and other SuperStock races :D

If there's no difference why allow factory teams to spend the mega bucks on GP style electronics? Of course the factories do it to win races - my question is why they are allowed to when it hurts the racing and spectacle. I don't buy the development argument. MOTOGP is supposed to be the archtypical development battleground for manufacturers, and even there they decided super advanced electronics had too onerous a cost - both to budgets and racing. So to argue the production series is the logical testbed for advanced electronics holds no water at all. Honda, BMW and Suzuki don't even have a factory presence in WSBK. I think you'd see a big difference reducing electronics in WSBK, much the same as MOTOGP has been better since they introduced a control ECU.

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JanBros
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by JanBros »

Racing isn't invented so that factories can develop stuff. Racing is invented by ordinairy people. Factories enter racing to show of their products and to devlop tecnologies/engineers. Big difference.

It should never be argumented that develoment of technologies is a good reason for making up the rules. Without direct factory-involvement, racing will continue and will survive. Main difference is it will be a lot cheaper.
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MiniNinjaMk5
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

Just looking at the testing times of MotoGP/WSBK from Jerez.

I have to say for all the talk of ECUs, rev limits and the rest of it, Jonny Rea did a time that would have put him 7th on the GP timesheets. :shock:

I honestly don't know why Kawasaki don't stick a ZX-RR fairing on the bike and be done with it! :)

bikermike
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by bikermike »

or leave the lights and mirrors on and really embarrass a few people... Could he get on the grid with luggage fitted? :D

Seriously though, Dorna do need to Have A Word with Kawasaki - it doesn't help either championship to have that imbalance in WSBK

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WorldSBK
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by WorldSBK »

Or come up with a new rule stating if one has won 3 championship titles with the same team, one needs to move on to another team. Is that feasible or impossible ?

MM93 is doing to motoGP what JR65 has done to WSBK.
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Tourn46
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Tourn46 »

WorldSBK wrote: MM93 is doing to motoGP what JR65 has done to WSBK.
Except, WSBK is really boring to watch and MotoGP isn't.

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JanBros
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by JanBros »

bikermike wrote: Seriously though, Dorna do need to Have A Word with Kawasaki - it doesn't help either championship to have that imbalance in WSBK
it's not Kawasaki, it's Jonathan.
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herbs
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by herbs »

MiniNinjaMk5 wrote:Just looking at the testing times of MotoGP/WSBK from Jerez.

I have to say for all the talk of ECUs, rev limits and the rest of it, Jonny Rea did a time that would have put him 7th on the GP timesheets. :shock:

I honestly don't know why Kawasaki don't stick a ZX-RR fairing on the bike and be done with it! :)
Jerez doesn't play to the strengths of a MotoGP bike, plus wsbk has qualifying tyres. He wouldn't even be close at a lot of other tracks. This discussion comes up every year.

bikermike
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by bikermike »

JanBros wrote:
bikermike wrote: Seriously though, Dorna do need to Have A Word with Kawasaki - it doesn't help either championship to have that imbalance in WSBK
it's not Kawasaki, it's Jonathan.
His paycheques have a big K on them...

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JanBros
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by JanBros »

bikermike wrote:
JanBros wrote:
bikermike wrote: Seriously though, Dorna do need to Have A Word with Kawasaki - it doesn't help either championship to have that imbalance in WSBK
it's not Kawasaki, it's Jonathan.
His paycheques have a big K on them...
So you want Dorna to ask Kawasaki to give Rea a crap bike and a competitive bike to Leon ???
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bikermike
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by bikermike »

JanBros wrote:
bikermike wrote:
His paycheques have a big K on them...
So you want Dorna to ask Kawasaki to give Rea a crap bike and a competitive bike to Leon ???
"Yeah Jonathan, it is the '19 WSBK bike, we just put lights and mirrors on it for run."
"Shit he's still setting the fastest times on a stock 600..."

What should be "done" about it is the question.
From Kawasaki's point of view, nothing, they have assembled the best team and bike and are winning stuff. Open to everyone else to do the same.
From Jonathan's point of view, he's paid to win races and that's what he's doing - he's taken the best permutation available to him to do that.
From DORNA's point of view, they need someone else to start winning


The problem is that Kawa and Ducati are the only full-fat factory teams in WSBK, and Kawa the only ones not running in MotoGP. Having seen how Aprillia got swallowed up, you can see why they don't want to. The problem is that Dorna have got everyone else into MotoGP, which makes it the biggest show in town. For WSBK to carve a niche, it needs to do somthing (I personally don't think the prototoype/production distinction works as well for the casual viewer as it does for cars).

Kawasaki being dominant in WSBK and not being in MotoGP confuses the narrative the dorna are trying to sell.

Ideal for Dorna would (I guess) be Rea + Kawasaki moving "up" to MotoGP and matching themselves against MotoGP's best

Anything else is not ideal, as it involves distorting competition, but in effect, for WSBK to be more popular, the Rea/Kawasaki axis needs to be split.

I'm sure the big K know that, as does Rea, but from their respective points of view, there is no reason to change. It's incentivising that that should be (IMO) Dorna's priority

Elton
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Elton »

JanBros wrote:
bikermike wrote: Seriously though, Dorna do need to Have A Word with Kawasaki - it doesn't help either championship to have that imbalance in WSBK
it's not Kawasaki, it's Jonathan.
No, it's Kawasaki. Or more accurately, Kawasaki's mega budget ekectonics package. I've no doubt Rea is one of the best riders, but I think on equal machinery Chaz Davies is much closer to him than the races last year would suggest. Sykes just isn't on Rea's level. He will be nowhere next year.

Ducati was the only other full factory program in WSBK, but as they themselves admitted, the V Twin had reached the end of its development potential and the current regs make it too hard to compete with that engine format. So I expect Ducati to be more competitive next year, but that doesn't change the fact that for 3 years Dorna have been asleep at the wheel while the racing went from boring to abysmal.

The fix to all this is obvious and has been for years. The blurred line between WSBK and GP does neither series any favours, and at the moment WSBK allows more technically advanced electronics than the supposed prototype series. GP is the pinnacle of the sport, make that distinction clearer by returning WSBK machines to proper production machines - ie current Superstock regs and potential fans and sponsors will be less confused. GP will be unambiguously the premier class of motorcycle racing.

This is nothing to be scared of for WSBK though, because WSBK doesn't need to compete with GP for speed or budgets or factory participation to be popular, and never has done. But it MUST HAVE exhilarating racing. GP can survive periods where a particular rider/manufacturer combo dominates for a long period because it is recognised as the pinnacle of the sport. Poor racing will sometimes be a by product of the fact that factories are spending mega bucks on development, but in the end the glitz, glam, prestige and factory presence will keep the series popular. That isn't the case in WSBK. Factories don't commit to the series and it can't survive without excellent racing because it isn't the premier class.

So you introduce a proper race by race parity system (which I see they are FINALLY doing) and tighten up the tech regs - ESPECIALLY with regard to aftermarket electronics which ruin the spectacle and have no philosophical place in production racing anyway. Superstock has much better racing than WSBK without electronics, GP has been better sonce the control ECU, same as BSB, and Moto 2 is maybe the most spectacular circuit bike racing series on the planet right now. Bring back the close racing and watch the crowds come flooding back. Johnny might still win, but he won't dominate 13 races in a row.

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JanBros
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by JanBros »

When Johhny was still riding for Ten Kate, the Honda was competitive on most tracks. As soon as he left the Honda turned into a pos. te bike didn't got worse, just the riders were not as good.
Sykes could have had more championships if Kawa hadn't hired Rea.

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Elton
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Elton »

I agree with all of that, Rea made the Honda look better than it was (though Van de Mark also had some notable performances on the blade). But the fact Sykes would have won more titles had Rea not been there points to how remarkable the Kawasaki is IMO. Tom is a good rider, but not on the same level as Rea. To be fair the only other guy on WSBK on his level would probably be Davies, and maybe Melandri. But take away the electronic advantage and put a parity system in place and you'll have much closer racing, guaranteed.

Vmax666
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Vmax666 »

2019 will be a better year but still end up with the same champion
Good to see a customer ducati as well I just hope they have the budget

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