State of world superbikes

Talk about the World Superbike series run by FGSport. Including World Superbikes, World Supersport, European Superstock, etc.
kenup283
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by kenup283 »

Great interview with Rea's crew chief, touches on all the topics being discussed here, be sure to read all 4 pages.

https://www.crash.net/wsbk/interview/91 ... -interview

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WorldSBK
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by WorldSBK »

The way Bautista rode that MotoGP Ducati at Phillip Island this year was quite impressive. Looking forward to watching him fight with Davies, Rea, Melandri ...
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Vmax666
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Vmax666 »

Has anyone seen any test results from th new Honda team
They seem to be cutting it fine for the first races next year

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MiniNinjaMk5
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

I think as it's the first time there has been an official Honda factory presence (since Colin Edwards on the SP2 in... 2001?) I don't think they'll just sit idle - would be very surprised if Honda aren't throwing money/resources at the project, even if via Moriwaki.

Vmax666
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Vmax666 »

Anyone seen any times for the new bmw
2 days of testing so I would have thought there may be a bit of leaked timings
I really hope more teams get competitive to at least keep rea honest

Elton
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Elton »

kenup283 wrote:Great interview with Rea's crew chief, touches on all the topics being discussed here, be sure to read all 4 pages.

https://www.crash.net/wsbk/interview/91 ... -interview
Good interview, but I humbly disagree with Riba. Having 7 top level full factory run teams probably would improve the racing but it's unrealistic when most factories have MotoGP budgets to worry about. The answer is to make WSBK racing good with or without factory teams and budgets. I'd watch Moto 2 over WSBK any day, and that's a control series running 600cc engines (750 next year I know). WSBK racing should be at least that good, but it isn't because the gap from the top teams to the bottom teams is too great, and the unnecessary electronic influence is sterilising it.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Mikesbytes »

18 Entries in WSBK...

I read somewhere that there were 50 entries in the 300cc category
My signature isn't particularly interesting

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Tourn46
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Tourn46 »

Mikesbytes wrote:18 Entries in WSBK...

I read somewhere that there were 50 entries in the 300cc category
How many were there last year?

AntG23985
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by AntG23985 »

They should really go down the BSB route, especially now STK1000 has gone, get rid of rider aids and use spec ECU's, great racing in that series and much more affordable than it use to be when the top teams were running ex-World Superbike machines against privateers.

bikermike
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by bikermike »

the tricky bit is keeping factories interested enough to stop it being a privateers series (and so lose prestige), but evening up the field sufficiently

(and for everyone on here that says "I don't care if factories are involved or not", it's not us that matter in this context, it's the selling it to the man in the street (by the TV rights companies and sponsors), that pays for the event).

Elton
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Elton »

bikermike wrote:the tricky bit is keeping factories interested enough to stop it being a privateers series (and so lose prestige), but evening up the field sufficiently

(and for everyone on here that says "I don't care if factories are involved or not", it's not us that matter in this context, it's the selling it to the man in the street (by the TV rights companies and sponsors), that pays for the event).
The man on the street loves great racing, and that needs to be the organisers top priority. If the racing got close again people would switch back on and turn up to the races, end of story. Screw the factories. If they want to spend mega bucks go to MotoGP and play with the big boys. To me its like comparing BTCC to F1. British touring cars are fantastic to watch and nobody is under any illusion that's it's as prestigious or fast as F1, but it still has a multitude of fans because the racing is good, because the tech regs and parity rules make it that way. It'll never 'compete' with F1 but it doesn't need to.

bikermike
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by bikermike »

by the same analogy there hasn't been a consistently successful world touring car championship.

If WSBK goes down that route, then it bumps into BSB etc

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JanBros
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by JanBros »

bikermike wrote: and for everyone on here that says "I don't care if factories are involved or not", it's not us that matter in this context, it's the selling it to the man in the street
So you think the man in the street is going to pay because Kawasaki and Ducati are involved ? and that they do not care that what they paid for is boring ?
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bikermike
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by bikermike »

Where did I say that?

What I said, and I stand by, is that the man in the street has head of Kawasaki/Honda/Ducati etc. They haven't heard of Kalex, Speed-up, Tech-3, Ten Kate etc.

For the same reason that AC Milan v Barcelona gets better viewing figures accross the globe than say, Monaco v FC Dortmund, for the casual channel-hopper, there is a bigger chance they have heard of it and will watch it.

If pure competitiveness sold series, then WSS would be everywhere. And it's not. See also touring cars - national series (and the cost scale that means) it works fine, step it up to the costs associated with an international series and it fails.

In F1 - who are the teams that everyone can name - Ferrari, Mercedes?

What is WSB's selling point? That is the thing the series needs to tell the man in the street.

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Tourn46
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Tourn46 »

bikermike wrote:Where did I say that?

What I said, and I stand by, is that the man in the street has head of Kawasaki/Honda/Ducati etc. They haven't heard of Kalex, Speed-up, Tech-3, Ten Kate etc.

For the same reason that AC Milan v Barcelona gets better viewing figures accross the globe than say, Monaco v FC Dortmund, for the casual channel-hopper, there is a bigger chance they have heard of it and will watch it.

If pure competitiveness sold series, then WSS would be everywhere. And it's not. See also touring cars - national series (and the cost scale that means) it works fine, step it up to the costs associated with an international series and it fails.

In F1 - who are the teams that everyone can name - Ferrari, Mercedes?

What is WSB's selling point? That is the thing the series needs to tell the man in the street.
But that's what the series is... It is the bikes "the man" sees on the street. It doesn't really mean anything.

It's boring as hell. It's a diabolical series. Nobody attends the rounds and nobody watches it on TV... because it's boring.

If all the factories left and every team was a private team... but the racing was excellent... people would watch it. First and foremost, it has to be entertaining in order to attract an audience.

PS. Did I mention how boring WSBK is?

AntG23985
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by AntG23985 »

There tends to be a cycle with regards to excitement, SBK was way more exiting than GP in the mid-to-late 90's, then Rossi-mania and the switch to 4-strokes took the mantle back for GP for a 5 years or so, then SBK became more exciting again up until maybe 4 years ago, 2014 was a cracking season but since then Rea and Kawasaki have been pretty much untouchable and MotoGP has since become more exciting to watch and unless the new Ducati V4 and BMW hit the ground running I can see it being a 5th consecutive title for Rea.

It's sad that Rea never got a chance to go to GP as I've always believed him to be better than Crutchlow who has generally been one of the more successful "non-Aliens" with numerous podiums and a handful of wins.

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JanBros
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by JanBros »

bikermike wrote:Where did I say that?

What I said, and I stand by, is that the man in the street has head of Kawasaki/Honda/Ducati etc. They haven't heard of Kalex, Speed-up, Tech-3, Ten Kate etc.

For the same reason that AC Milan v Barcelona gets better viewing figures accross the globe than say, Monaco v FC Dortmund, for the casual channel-hopper, there is a bigger chance they have heard of it and will watch it.

If pure competitiveness sold series, then WSS would be everywhere. And it's not. See also touring cars - national series (and the cost scale that means) it works fine, step it up to the costs associated with an international series and it fails.

In F1 - who are the teams that everyone can name - Ferrari, Mercedes?

What is WSB's selling point? That is the thing the series needs to tell the man in the street.
so basicly you all you are saying that people in general prefer to associate themselves with winning teams ...
I don't care that people who do not look any longer because the names don't ring a bell will no longer watch. they are not the people you would want to built everything arround. You need enthusiastic people who spread the word and tell everybody they know should look to sometime, because it's spectacular, entertaining and thrilling from start to end.

F1 is in deep shit, and they know it. They do not have an entertaining product for years now (basicly Mercedes IS their Rea) and are looking everywhere and change rules almost on a daily basis to bring some more spectacle but it will not help and remain as boring as possibly can be. Without DRS or obligated tyre changes, thee surely would be races where nobody would make a pass ... As long as the Top teams can spent whatever they can, they are untouchable.

Kick out the manufacturers out of any racing series, and there will still be richer teams who win more compared to porer who will have less succes. So people will not associate themselves with Ducati or Honda, but with Pramac or Tech3.
Basicly : nothing much will change, except less money will be burnt and the gaps will be smaller because develompent will be a lot slower and no team will have the resources to make/set-up the bike 100% perfectly.
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Apical
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Apical »

MEH !

I'm not giving up on superbikes yet.

let's see how the first few rounds go.

300 ssp is popular with punters & some racers

600 SSP was good last season & may be good in 2019.

I will be riding to the 1st round. any excuse to go to Phillip island will do for me.
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bikermike
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by bikermike »

JanBros wrote: so basicly you all you are saying that people in general prefer to associate themselves with winning teams ...
I don't care that people who do not look any longer because the names don't ring a bell will no longer watch. they are not the people you would want to built everything arround. You need enthusiastic people who spread the word and tell everybody they know should look to sometime, because it's spectacular, entertaining and thrilling from start to end.
Wonderful. Now find the 40-odd thousand of these super-enthused and motivated people to pay to attend each round and several million of them willing to tune in to make it worth the advertisers' while. Ferrari are still the most popular team and they've won naff-all
F1 is in deep shit, and they know it. They do not have an entertaining product for years now (basicly Mercedes IS their Rea) and are looking everywhere and change rules almost on a daily basis to bring some more spectacle but it will not help and remain as boring as possibly can be. Without DRS or obligated tyre changes, thee surely would be races where nobody would make a pass ... As long as the Top teams can spent whatever they can, they are untouchable.
Look at the relative turnovers. F1 could pretty much buy MotoGP out of it's biscuit budget. I think WSBK would love to have the problems F1 has.
Kick out the manufacturers out of any racing series, and there will still be richer teams who win more compared to porer who will have less succes. So people will not associate themselves with Ducati or Honda, but with Pramac or Tech3.
Basicly : nothing much will change, except less money will be burnt and the gaps will be smaller because develompent will be a lot slower and no team will have the resources to make/set-up the bike 100% perfectly.
no they won't because they won't have seen it. Take cricket in the UK - 2006 we beat the Aussies in a stunning series. interest in a high for the last 40 years. What happens? they take it to sky and lose all the casual viewers. Result, attendances are down again. Motorsport at any level takes serious cash

kenup283
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by kenup283 »

10 hrs ago WSBK and accompanying Superstock were at a heigh point and MotoGP series at a low.

What it meant was more racing to watch than you have time for.

10yrs later the stucture will now be completed to make MotoGP into what WSBK was, and to turn WSBK into what was SSTK.

This was done by killing off SSTK class and trying to bring all others down.

The downside was the grassroots teams, those that made up the large grids in SSTK and fed into SBK, the fabric that made those series so exiting, effectivly got cut and were lost or ended up doing other things or gone all toghether.

It will take time but there is room for new teams currently in oversubscribed lower displacment series to filter up. It will also take some rules stability for technology gaps to settle and equipment packages to filter down.

Dorna made good in these areas in MotoGP series and got behind the independent teams giving them more visibility and outright funding their bikes. They have also kept good focus in mind for the indeoendant teams as Moto3 was developed and where to keep Moto2.

The future of WSBK will depend on if or when Dorna make similar efforts there. The technical challenge is always there but the show ultimately suffers when only a few play.

Elton
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Elton »

I wouldn't mind seeing Kawasaki and Rea win 12 races in a row if I could actually see the extra talent and control he was exerting over the bike to dominate in such fashion, but the bike might as well be on rails. It's boring as batshit, because the factories are able to use their deeper pockets to exploit the electronic regs far more than the other teams. I love watching Moto 2 because no matter how much the winner wins by (though the racing is generally top notch) , I can actually see the guys controlling the bikes themselves without electonics sterilising any slides before they even happen. WSBK on paper has so much more going for it but electronics are killing it, and no amount of format changes or reverse grids will make an iota of difference until it gets fixed. Let em keep their stock ECU and that's it.

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JanBros
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by JanBros »

Elton wrote:Let em keep their stock ECU and that's it.
even that is not a good idea.

The jap's sell "simple" affordable bikes, Ducati can sell any bike they want at any price they want with any top-technology they want. Basicly they could make a WSBK with as good electronics as a MotoGP bike before the unified stuff.
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Faster1
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Faster1 »

Apical wrote:MEH !

I'm not giving up on superbikes yet.

let's see how the first few rounds go.

300 ssp is popular with punters & some racers

600 SSP was good last season & may be good in 2019.

I will be riding to the 1st round. any excuse to go to Phillip island will do for me.
Exactly,, Well almost
I like 300s, its almost moto3ish in that is has close racing. Only 2 brands though,, that sucks

600ssp is in deep trouble. More 600s are sold than 1000. And lately, its a Yamaha only party. and that's not good for the sport. Kwak looks to be focusing on the 300s and it feels like Honda develops/changes the CBR significantly once every 10 years. Its boring AF to see only Yamahas fighting for the podium and it looks to be the same in 2019.

On the big bikes, It will be important for Yamaha and Ducati to be at the sharp end. Aprilla and MV don't have the budget and that's not their fault. I'm glad they're still trying. BMW is the enigma, they build an out-of-the-box rocket but they show no real factory support. And Honda has definitely proved that they don't care about anything except GP and moto 3

For the first time since it was available, I'm on the fence about renewing my WSBK subscription. I like Rea and all, but who the hell wants to watch the race being over by the 3rd lap. I'll probably cave in and buy in, if only to see the new Duc V4 and Yamaha progress.
.


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Lifelong Yamaha Racing fan, but currently riding a Duc,,,, don't tell anyone 8-)


let's talk WSBK

Elton
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Re: State of world superbikes

Post by Elton »

JanBros wrote:
Elton wrote:Let em keep their stock ECU and that's it.
even that is not a good idea.

The jap's sell "simple" affordable bikes, Ducati can sell any bike they want at any price they want with any top-technology they want. Basicly they could make a WSBK with as good electronics as a MotoGP bike before the unified stuff.
I hear ya, but the systems on road bikes are light years from what the factories are employing in WSBK, where they customise all the electronic perameters via a myriad of sensors race by race. I wouldn't mind the current systems being allowed, and importantly they wouldnt be able to adjust them race by race, which is really the main problem. Realistically the road bike electronics would hardly be used, as they would just make the riders slower over the course of a lap. Ducati could theoretically create something with MOTOGP level kit for the road, but that would be a very expensive bike and they would have to homologate a lot of them to use it in WSBK. Organisers could always put a price cap on what bike is allowed to be homologated to prevent that situation if it came up. I'd happily see em banned completely though if it was too hard to police.

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