Ducati V4

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Fingernails
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Ducati V4

Post by Fingernails »

Will the Ducati V4 be a step forward for Ducati in WSB, and mean that they can beat the Kwacka. Particularly the Kwacka with Rea on it?

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Re: Ducati V4

Post by WorldSBK »

Apparently, for Chaz Davies, staying with Ducati with the new V4 engine is a risk. I don't see how a new engine can come in and win the championship in its first year.
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Re: Ducati V4

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WorldSBK wrote:Apparently, for Chaz Davies, staying with Ducati with the new V4 engine is a risk. I don't see how a new engine can come in and win the championship in its first year.
Maybe not. But, Ducati appear to know how to make engines And even if it takes a bit of time for the new bike to be refined, Davies at 31 years old has a bit of time. It's not like he has any better options to win the championship. Or, does he?

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Re: Ducati V4

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Fingernails wrote:Will the Ducati V4 be a step forward for Ducati in WSB, and mean that they can beat the Kwacka. Particularly the Kwacka with Rea on it?
off couse it will be an improvement, why would you even doubt that ?

long time ago Honda made a twin to beat ducati because at the time it was not possible with a four. rules have changed, so now it's Ducati's time to beat the opponent's with their own tools.
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Re: Ducati V4

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JanBros wrote: off couse it will be an improvement, why would you even doubt that ?
I'm not quite sure what you mean here. For the V4 to move forward, it will have to improve relative to its competitors. I.e. how will the V4 Ducati compare to the 2019 Kawasaki and Yamaha bikes? I don't think it's a done deal that the Duke will lead the field. Possible, yes.

What you write is a bit ambiguous. When you say 'improvement' do you mean an improvement compared to its competitors (moving goalposts) or an improvement compared to the current Duke twin?
long time ago Honda made a twin to beat ducati because at the time it was not possible with a four. rules have changed, so now it's Ducati's time to beat the opponent's with their own tools.
Maybe. I was hoping for slightly more deep discussion than just assuming it will happen.

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Re: Ducati V4

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If Honda would bring a brand new V4 Fireblade next year, would you wonder the same thing (being an improvement over the current inlie 4) ?

If Ducati didn't think/know for sure it will be better than the current twin, they wouldn't have bothered.

Will it be faster straight out of the box ? maybe, maybe not. But that is always the case with a brand new bike/concept when you compare it to the previous bike that was developped and improved over several years.
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Re: Ducati V4

Post by WorldSBK »

Fingernails wrote:... Davies at 31 years old has a bit of time. It's not like he has any better options to win the championship. Or, does he?
Sure, as of now (for what we know), there aren't that many factory bikes available out there. My hope is Suzuki and BMW would come back ...
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Re: Ducati V4

Post by Mikesbytes »

In addition to tuning the bike, there's the case of what they can put in it while meeting the Euro cap, unless they want to see a lot of bikes at a $ loss.

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Race of Champions 2018 [2 hours 17 minutes] [commentary in eye-tie] https://youtu.be/9wZZUtFz4zI Let me know which bit(s) to watch
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Re: Ducati V4

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JanBros wrote:If Honda would bring a brand new V4 Fireblade next year, would you wonder the same thing (being an improvement over the current inlie 4) ?

If Ducati didn't think/know for sure it will be better than the current twin, they wouldn't have bothered.

Will it be faster straight out of the box ? maybe, maybe not. But that is always the case with a brand new bike/concept when you compare it to the previous bike that was developped and improved over several years.
I'm not asking if it will be better than the current twin. I'm asking if it will be significantly better than the competition. E.g. Kawasaki and Yamaha. That's what's important. Will Ducati's V4 allow them to leap-frog the competition? Either next year or the year after. Net effect is that you go backwards.

It's no good improving your bike so that it's two seconds a lap faster, if your competitors improve their bikes so that they are three seconds a lap faster.

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Re: Ducati V4

Post by JanBros »

Fingernails wrote:
I'm not asking if it will be better than the current twin. I'm asking if it will be significantly better than the competition. E.g. Kawasaki and Yamaha. That's what's important. Will Ducati's V4 allow them to leap-frog the competition? Either next year or the year after. Net effect is that you go backwards.

It's no good improving your bike so that it's two seconds a lap faster, if your competitors improve their bikes so that they are three seconds a lap faster.
the answer remains the same : with their current bike they obviously can not beat them. so they must bring a new bike. If it will answer your real question no one can answer. Wait and see ;)
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Re: Ducati V4

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JanBros wrote: the answer remains the same : with their current bike they obviously can not beat them. so they must bring a new bike. If it will answer your real question no one can answer. Wait and see ;)
No-one can answer definitively, but people can say what they believe and why.

I think the V4 has a good chance of leading the field in a couple of years. I believe that Ducati know what they are doing with bike design, and have the motivation to commit sufficient resources to win. They're the closest to Kawasaki even with a twin, which appears to be a slight disadvantage right now. So, it seems entirely possible that Ducati with a V4 could jump Kawasaki.

However, what may throw a spanner in the works are the new rules to even out the field. If the rules worked perfectly, they would equalise the field and technological advance would be of limited use. However, the rules are unlikely to be applied perfectly, in which case even the best bike might not win if that manufacturer is limited (e.g. rev limits) more than others.

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Re: Ducati V4

Post by kenup283 »

I can see the concern, similar was the case with Carlos Checa and the 1098/1198 when Ducati switched to the Panigale.

Basically they introduced as worse bike and declined to homologate the old bike, which could have been done with just some paper work. Basically it was this is the new bike and this is what we will race. Results only now start to close to where they were when retired the old bike.

Not to say they could have sustained long term with what hey had, but they certainly walked away from a championship winning and sweet handling bike in favor for "progress" and Carlos their last WSBK champion ended up calling it a day,

What it really came down to is selling new models which ducati has done surprisingly well at over this same period of declining race results, as their new product lines have been growing their sales substantially over competition who was beating them on the race track.

So to answer the question, will the V4 be a step forward. I suppose it will be if Ducati decide to pull an old trick out of the bag and only make it in 1100cc engine and say hey we're here to race, do you really want a championship without us? How about making a rev limit adjustment since that's the new balancing act and let us run what we've brung. :)

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Re: Ducati V4

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kenup283 wrote: So to answer the question, will the V4 be a step forward. I suppose it will be if Ducati decide to pull an old trick out of the bag and only make it in 1100cc engine and say hey we're here to race, do you really want a championship without us? How about making a rev limit adjustment since that's the new balancing act and let us run what we've brung. :)
I find it difficult to believe that Ducati would be allowed to race the 1100cc version. It's said that a 1000cc homologation special is already in the pipeline. https://www.motorcyclenews.com/sport/wo ... -in-jerez/

Interesting discussion about the last major change.

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Re: Ducati V4

Post by bikermike »

Ducati have never let the racing tail wag the sales dog.
If they need to switch on the V4 for marketing reasons, they will do.

Also, they have a habit of pushing every component to it's limits to extract the winning performance - I believe the crank cases on the last 916/969/996 etc derivatives had a crankcase life measured in hours. If they think they've gone as far as they can with the v-twin, then it's probable that they have, and that after a short learning curve, they'll be back up there.

I wonder what other manufacturers have out there? maybe this year is a good year to get the new bike launched and take the performance hit now, and then be bug-free when Honda/Suzuki/Yamaha come out with new models to get right the year after

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Re: Ducati V4 a new hope

Post by Apical »

Claudio D seems to indicate that the 1000cc Panigale R will have wings or winglets. Interesting & may make a difference in SBK.
Ducati have been developing the V4 engine for some time already, the production 1100s have been on the road all this year. I heard that Ducati was going to run the 1100 version in some class of racing in 2018 but I don't know if they have. From memory it was going to be CIV or European superstock championship. Any news there?

I'm assuming Ducati will do their homework & by the time World SBK starts next year the basic package should be adequate. Where is the 2019 SBK calendar, damn you Dorna! I guess the Ducks will be tested back to back & the V4 will have to be competitive or very close to the panigale V-twin before the V4 makes it's public racing debut.

Hopefully the price of a Panigale v-twin will come down when the fast V4s hit the market, fingers crossed.
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Re: Ducati V4 a new hope

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Apical wrote:Claudio D seems to indicate that the 1000cc Panigale R will have wings or winglets. Interesting & may make a difference in SBK.
Ducati have been developing the V4 engine for some time already, the production 1100s have been on the road all this year. I heard that Ducati was going to run the 1100 version in some class of racing in 2018 but I don't know if they have. From memory it was going to be CIV or European superstock championship. Any news there?

I'm assuming Ducati will do their homework & by the time World SBK starts next year the basic package should be adequate. Where is the 2019 SBK calendar, damn you Dorna! I guess the Ducks will be tested back to back & the V4 will have to be competitive or very close to the panigale V-twin before the V4 makes it's public racing debut.

Hopefully the price of a Panigale v-twin will come down when the fast V4s hit the market, fingers crossed.
Do classes like this have any restrictions that prevent the 1100 being raced? Capacity limit, price cap, minimum production run etc etc
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Re: Ducati V4 a new hope

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Apical wrote:Hopefully the price of a Panigale v-twin will come down when the fast V4s hit the market, fingers crossed.
I've already seen one on the road ... sounds great !

The more I watch Chaz Davies the more I like him ... He fought well in Portugal but it doesn't look like his bike allowed him to win
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Re: Ducati V4 a new hope

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WorldSBK wrote:
Apical wrote:Hopefully the price of a Panigale v-twin will come down when the fast V4s hit the market, fingers crossed.
I've already seen one on the road ... sounds great !

The more I watch Chaz Davies the more I like him ... He fought well in Portugal but it doesn't look like his bike allowed him to win
Yeah, I saw a V4 Panigale out a couple of weeks ago through Glencoe in Scotland... God damn it was beautiful... the sound was just as phenomenal.

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Re: Ducati V4 a new hope

Post by Apical »

Mikesbytes posted "Do classes like this have any restrictions that prevent the 1100 being raced? Capacity limit, price cap, minimum production run etc etc"

From memory it is definitely 1000cc limit for 4 cylinders. Ducati have had the rules changed in their favor before now. then it was for the two cylinder engine.

The price cap is 40,000 Euros as far as I know.

Production numbers and homologation I have no idea.

Yes the V4 sounds rather good & looks a bit better than the Panigale twin in some areas. Particularly the exhaust plumbing around the back of the engine, in front of the rear wheel seems better laid out & a bit more compact or tidier.
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Re: Ducati V4

Post by Rick650 »

There are many reasons why the Panigale V4 should be better than competitive, the question is how soon.
Engine is a narrow V4, bore probably 81mm bore , counter rotation, traction enhancing firing order (all the same as MotoGP) desmo (which might be slightly neutered by rev limits)
Chassis is aluminium frame, so the frameless concept is gone, again following MotoGP.
The basic concept and design offers lots of options for knowledge transfer from the very good GP18.
By comparison the Kawasaki looks like a really well developed and ridden evolutionary machine that has far less input from MotoGP.

If the Ducati is semi sorted (in particular electronics) by the start of the the season the opposition could be in trouble.

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Re: Ducati V4

Post by Mikesbytes »

Isn't the configuration the same as as the MotoGP bike with a longer stroke to take it to 1100cc + of course road thingies such as alternator
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Re: Ducati V4

Post by Tourn46 »

Mikesbytes wrote:Isn't the configuration the same as as the MotoGP bike with a longer stroke to take it to 1100cc + of course road thingies such as alternator
I thought there was to be a 1000cc version or something?

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Re: Ducati V4

Post by Mikesbytes »

Tourn46 wrote:
Mikesbytes wrote:Isn't the configuration the same as as the MotoGP bike with a longer stroke to take it to 1100cc + of course road thingies such as alternator
I thought there was to be a 1000cc version or something?
Yes that's what I understand, a 1000cc sports version and a 1100cc whatever version
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Re: Ducati V4

Post by Rick650 »

I just watched the race of Champions.
The bikes still had the brake lights hooked up.
It was really interesting to see where the lights were coming on in the shots from behind, especially on locations on the circuit where it had to be rear brake only to modulate the power delivery or tighten the line or what ever else these guys can do with the rear brake.

On the Panigale V4, early reports had the motor as being developed from the GP15. It should be a relatively easy change to de-stroke it to get to the required 1000cc retaining the bore (81mm) of both the 1100 V4 and the GP bikes and the shorter stroke of the GP bike.

Unlike the GP bikes the Panigale V4 does not have a full frame connecting the steering head to the swing arm pivot. How this will impact on the handling and adjustability is not yet known.
We might find out whether the too many Davies front end crashes were a function of the bike or the rider trying too hard.

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Re: Ducati V4

Post by Vmax666 »

Really looking forward to seeing it in action
I think it will prove to be a power house with the Desmo valve gear
Smaller pistons will allow higher reving than the current twin and the gp bike beats all the other bikes even with pneumatic valve gear so against spring valves I think the difference will be huge ( and may even be detuned so as not to show too big a advantage)
Still think rea will end up champion again though

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