MOTO3 project

Debate and discussion about the feeder classes of MotoGP, including the fabulous 250s, the thrilling 125s, and the madness that is the Red Bull Rookies
oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Just got back from Jerez, last round of the CEV.

It was very difficult to get any info on the Monlau bike (in fact all of the NSF's were slosely guarded) although I did manage to sneak a few photos for digest!

From what I could gleam, the Monlau bike has the ultimate hop up kit and the engine was prepared by Goetech, There are 3 or 4 kits available to hop up the NSF, so as you get it from Honda its in a low state of tune, numbers were difficult to get hold of but price in spain for the NSF is 16k Euro, with hop up kits starting from 4k Euro up to 16K euro! from the outside the Monlau bike looks standard except for the twin disk set up.
Maintenance schedules look like 500Km before re-fresh which will cost ORO 4k Euro.

The bike would appear to have a very even spread of power from 9k upward thus making it easier to ride (in those conditions) than the 2 strokes, they were revving it to about 13500RPM (although once Oliviera got a gap he closed it down a bit)
The engine architechture is nothing very special except for the layed back cylinder which appears to have been done for two reasons, wheight distribution and airflow to the injection system, but the exhaust route is compromised. The Monlau bike exhaust still has the original dimensions as the std ones (unless everyone has changed them?) strangely the exhaust design is very similar to the one we have tested on our 250, but of a longer length dictated by the cylinder position.
I think the main reason that bike looked so good was the rider and the weather conditions! I recon on average with decent weather, the new 250's will be 2-3 seconds a lap slower than the Aprillia/Derbi's although easier to ride.

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RatsMC
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by RatsMC »

Really can't thank you enough for taking the time to share this all with us. I'm still sorting out in my head how this is all going to work but having this information as reference is brilliant.

dave pearce
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by dave pearce »

RatsMC wrote:Really can't thank you enough for taking the time to share this all with us. I'm still sorting out in my head how this is all going to work but having this information as reference is brilliant.
This forum is very fortunate to be able to share the in depth thoughts of an experienced race engineer.
I look forward to more pearls of wisdom in the coming months.

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Thanks Dave, I always try to help where I can.

TwoStroke Institute
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by TwoStroke Institute »

I think the desaxation in the cylinder plays a big part with the Not So Fast, the new KTM will trounce it but. The power is pretty good (by 4T yardsticks) and they don't go BANG like the mx'ers.
If Jesus had ridden, he would have rode a two stroke

Domino
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by Domino »

Any more pics? Updates?

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Yea... Its all plumbed and wired datalogging is hooked up along with Ignition unit all debugged and tested, can't show you much because some stuff on there is a little different to everyone else. Have no fear the first complete pistures will appear here first. As soon as I can share more I will.

dave pearce
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by dave pearce »

oldboyonrgv wrote:Yea... Its all plumbed and wired datalogging is hooked up along with Ignition unit all debugged and tested, can't show you much because some stuff on there is a little different to everyone else. Have no fear the first complete pistures will appear here first. As soon as I can share more I will.
As the designer and constructor of this bike I think it,s time you stopped pulling the wool over peoples eyes.
The bike was WHEELED out of my workshop in August with just a few weeks work to do ,(and that's being kind)
.As I said at the time the engine in this bike is a complete waste of time and you don't need datalogging to confirm
that. I once sent a kit to a Kiwi rider in early December , on the 26th of that month he finished 2nd in it's first race.
Maybe Antipodeans have a bit more resolve than us Poms!

Dave Pearce (My real name)
TIGCRAFT

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Thanks for the constructive comments as ever Dave.......

dave pearce
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by dave pearce »

It's a hundred views since your last "Update".

During that time I was contacted by your engine builder. He asked" How did the bike go in Spain" ? He then explained that he had not had any contact for several months.
I also spoke today with my Mouldmaker/ laminator RE the airbox. To my amazement he said he has NEVER spoken to you.
There are people reading this thread who would give their right & left arm to be offered the basis you were provided
with back in August at NO financial cost to you.

A smug response is anticipated

PS
If you had quietly got on with this rather than cultivating the impression to the world that YOU are some bike designer
none of my postings would be required.

Cam D
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by Cam D »

Now that you guys have brought the washing out in public... could you share your grievences with the rest of us as there seems to be quite a bit unsaid. I'm enjoying the banter.
Last edited by Cam D on Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yamaha... Japanese for "Two dog's - One steak"- Japh the wise.

Cam D
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by Cam D »

dave pearce wrote:One fact regarding Valencia 125/Moto was the failure to qualify of the very professional French
Martial Garcia team. It is now obvious that a Moto X derived engine is a complete waste of time.
To suggest otherwise is being disingenuous in the extreme.It gives me no pleasure to say this as I have designed and built many Race winning Moto X engined road racers. BUT this was for club type
events. THIS (Moto3) is the REAL thing.

Dave Pearce

Tigcraft
Dave, what makes do you feel are the MX motor can't be converted. Crank weight? Love to have your thoughts on both style of engine. I read of a similar issue tuning YZ125 MX motors to race in lay down road race carts.
Yamaha... Japanese for "Two dog's - One steak"- Japh the wise.

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

I will not air the dirty washing on a public forum, I understand Dave's frustrations (I feel them too) sometimes things are out of your hands. Dave reliquished any involvement in this project a couple of months ago, I do not know and do not want to know the details behind that. So I have been building this machine in my spare time whilst holding down full time employment, I refuse to allow the bike to make any appearance looking anything other than built correctly - the machines in Spain and Italy have a certain level of finish standard which I will attain , I will not be rushed.

I have re-read this thread and cannot see in any place where I have claimed to be the designer, or indeed a 'Race engineer' the term 'we' was inclusive of all those included in the design and build of the motorcycle, not exclusive to me. I do claim however to have some knowledge and first hand (recent) experience of racing motorcyles (each of which have been prepared by me for my son to ride) along with making the effort to go and see the latest machines. I have made no claims of the performance of this machine, that would be stupid in light of the fact that it is untested, I did however state that if all goes well we will decide where it would be best placed (either BSB or CEV or indeed both)

Dave Pearce has made an excellent job of the chassis, My son has ridden on Dave's chassis and says that the handling is the best he has experienced I have no critism to make of Dave's workmanship and personaly I have no axe to grind with him, I guess Daves somewhat acidic and sarcastic comments on this forum are a reflection of something I have done or said or wrote, if so I apologise.

I will continue to put updates here as I see fit, if you guys are interested in seeing them. The Bike will be built and will be raced.

dave pearce
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Re: MOTO3 project the truth at last

Post by dave pearce »

There seems to be a bit of reality creeping in here. I will leave others to judge whether you have economical with
the facts.My opinion is the same as in August when the owner( who has complete faith in you at the moment) wheeled
The bike out of my workshop.
At the time I expressed strong professional reservations about your ability to complete this project.
1 NO workshop !
2 No racing experience at UK National level

95% of the teams in a BSB paddock go to work on a Monday morning have mortgages and mouths to feed.
So please just stop talking and FINISH the bike.

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Anyway, Plumbed the watersystem up on Saturday, tested the control system by heat cycling using a hot air blower, after a bit of pfaffing about it all worked fine (sensor mounting etc), then moved on to mounting the front fork linear sensor, because of the radiator shroud I had to off set the bottom of the sensor down a piece of 20MM carbon angle soon sorted that out. Rear sensor was also fitted, once again carbon fibre brackets had to be fabricated. One thing I did run into was that the batteries we are using(the bike runs total loss) have an odd output voltage, so I have had to work out a way to drop the voltage across the water pump controller or it has a fit!! parts should be here today for that.
I will take some photos tomorrow

TwoStroke Institute
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by TwoStroke Institute »

Cam D wrote:Dave, what makes do you feel are the MX motor can't be converted. Crank weight? Love to have your thoughts on both style of engine. I read of a similar issue tuning YZ125 MX motors to race in lay down road race carts.
I dunno about the 'foul strokes' but can say that converted mx'ers have shortcomings upon shortcomings. Mx'er will go OK if every other engine is a mxer. When a purpose built road race engine(2T) is designed first start is the gearbox, 6 speeds and ratios closely spaced, normaly a dry clutch and balance shaft incorporated.A 2T 125 will have greater crankcase volume, cylinder will use every available bit of area for the ports. Power will be biased toward top end but not as much as you would think, electronic power valve is a must, water cooled crankcases and sometimes an electric water pump. Pipe design differs greatly, not many mx pipes are properly designed or constructed, whereas a Ti 125/250 GP pipe is art.Great attention is paid to cooling the cylinder and piston. If your realy serious a disc valve with a 42mm electronic pulsed powerjet carburetor do the fueling. That's what you can see, what you can't see are things like high inertia cranks and very long rods(typicaly 105/110 for a mxer and 115 to 120 for road race) compression varies between 15.5 and 16.5 :1. Ignitions will be mapped in each gear and TPS dependent(Aprilia 250's had traction control linked to lean angle) gearshift is via a quickshift.
On your way to 50HP :lol:
If Jesus had ridden, he would have rode a two stroke

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Pantah
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by Pantah »

Its true....I always had a dream to have a MX500 in a Mito frame......What's the point? My RGV VJ23 ROCKS.....I would be pushing shit uphill with the MX project.....Ha ha ha Suzuki has done the work for me and I still have an animal motocrosser in its true form.......Oh and let's go easy on the dirty laundry in this thread!

dave pearce
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Re: MOTO3 project TIGCRAFT

Post by dave pearce »

oldboyonrgv wrote:Anyway, Plumbed the watersystem up on Saturday, tested the control system by heat cycling using a hot air blower, after a bit of pfaffing about it all worked fine (sensor mounting etc), then moved on to mounting the front fork linear sensor, because of the radiator shroud I had to off set the bottom of the sensor down a piece of 20MM carbon angle soon sorted that out. Rear sensor was also fitted, once again carbon fibre brackets had to be fabricated. One thing I did run into was that the batteries we are using(the bike runs total loss) have an odd output voltage, so I have had to work out a way to drop the voltage across the water pump controller or it has a fit!! parts should be here today for that.
I will take some photos tomorrow
As you decided to make this TIGCRAFT PROJECT A public matter .A few facts need to be clarified.
Every major component except the motor was manufactured or supplied by my company TIGCRAFT.
oldboyonrgv had no part whatsoever in the design, manufacture or procurement of components indeed
until July of this year he had never seen the bike.
Since September, when this site was pointed out to me I have had watch this character claiming if only
by inuendo that HE was the driving force behind all of this.This ( building race bikes) Is what I try to do for a living
it is also my total passion and has been all my adult life.

If this is seen as dirty washing well tough. All I ask is for some respect and acknowledgment of my craft.

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Dave I absolutely agree, I never intended to take credit for that work which you have done, I started the thread at the point where I recieved the rolling chassis with those parts in place I state again here, the we was meant to be inclusive, I was reticent in adding company names purely in respect of the person who is financing the whole thing and because at that time you had made the statement that this was not an official TIGCRAFT project. Therefore I felt I could not explicitly name TIGCRAFT as the main fabricator, at that time my point of contact was (is) the owner, I am sure that if my work on the bike falls below the expectation then it will be removed from me........

dave pearce
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by dave pearce »

What you have just said borders on spam

Don't fancy euro supermono on 690KTM Tigcraft?
not as daft as it sounds.

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Kropotkin
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by Kropotkin »

dave pearce wrote:What you have just said borders on spam

Don't fancy euro supermono on 690KTM Tigcraft?
not as daft as it sounds.
Could we please all step away from the handbags? It is a little tiresome. I am all too happy for people to explain what they are doing, and for others to chip in to clarify the situation, but some of this thread is starting to sound like an old married couple bickering. Fewer cryptic hints, please, and more calm and rational explanation...
--
http://www.motomatters.com/ - MotoGP News, Analysis and Race Reports

dave pearce
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Re: MOTO3 project Peace at last

Post by dave pearce »

You are right Kropotkin

Ironically before I had read your posting we had a friendly chat on the phone and I am pleased to say everything Is
Now sorted.

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Agreed all sorted......

Cam D
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by Cam D »

That's good news! Communication is always a good thing. I think I pseak for many when I say that I'd love it if you both continued to post information on resepective builds, and issues you face as you go. Believe me... it's appreciated!
Yamaha... Japanese for "Two dog's - One steak"- Japh the wise.

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tom
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by tom »

+1 with Cam. For the average Joe fan, to get this 'close' to the building of a GP bike is most insightful and interesting. Its not something that happens every day. Don't take the lack of posts in this thread as a indication of lack of interest, its more that we just dont want to clog it up with posts along the lines of 'fantastic love the pics and the info, keep it up' :)

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