MOTO3 project

Debate and discussion about the feeder classes of MotoGP, including the fabulous 250s, the thrilling 125s, and the madness that is the Red Bull Rookies
oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Discs are sorted by those lovely people at Mode Performance, well we sorted out the off set and they are getting a couple fo centers from Brembo, so front end is done (just about) still need to sort out the other wheels which have modular hubs so I should be able to use the 6MM offset discs.
Steering damper is now fitted and bolted up and also fitted the front mudguard (once we had got it off the ceiling!) should be fitting the Fairing today/tomorrow, Just fabrciating a bracket to take the rear of the seat then we can fix that and fair it in then I can start on the ducting, so in short we are just waiting on the airbox so that I can do the electronics and run the cables - nearly there :P

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Gustav O
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by Gustav O »

To me it seems to be a fair bit of a RS125R clone.
I am curious to what the thinking behind changes, with regards to chassies performance and lay out, has been. Where do you think you can gain an advantage and why?
What advantage does the tube frame present towards a aluminum one and how did you copme to the conclusion to take this route? Expereince, easier to manufacture or other?

Some random thoughts. I like the thread and your effort!

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

One thing it is NOT is an RS125 clone!!! nothing on it is RS125, we are using tube frame because it worked for Ducati for many years, the geometry is similar although smaller that the 450 which out handled rs125's, we also found that in Spain the Aprillias could out turn the RS125, thus the front and rear suspension is more Aprillia than Honda.

The advantages should be (and until we test we dont know) turn quicker and hold line better than either Aprillia or Honda. this is because of the nature of the frame design and construction Vs Aluminium - remember all of the MOTO2 bike chattering to death last year??
The chassis is also designed for direct air induction - A very straight run for air feed to airbox.
We are also very conscious of weight v stiifness the tube we are using makes a frame lighter than aluminium for a given stiffness, Finite stress analysis has been done on the frame design so we know which parameters we are working to and how it compares with Honda and Aprillia.

To my knowledge this is the most radical MOTO3 bike currently being built....

Cam D
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by Cam D »

oldboyonrgv wrote:The chassis is also designed for direct air induction - A very straight run for air feed to airbox.
Can't remember what the rules say about it but will you be running ram air? If so have you had much experience with ram air?
What telemetry will you be running?
Yamaha... Japanese for "Two dog's - One steak"- Japh the wise.

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Yes I have worked with ram air/ pressurised air boxes, The rules make no mention about it.
Aim datalogging you can guess what one of the channels will be doing!

http://www.fim-live.com/fileadmin/user_ ... 0April.pdf
8-)

Cam D
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by Cam D »

Will you guys be going for the in-house mapping option or will you be sending a couple of complete engine setups in?
Have they decided what fuel they are running?
Have they decided what tyres they are running?
Will you be limited to the amount for testing etc? Is testing time/venue limited?
Gear changes will be a bit of a hassle, splitting the cases requires supervision by an official etc
Yamaha... Japanese for "Two dog's - One steak"- Japh the wise.

TwoStroke Institute
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by TwoStroke Institute »

What about the gearbox? What sort of final gearing can it pull? That will make or break it.
If Jesus had ridden, he would have rode a two stroke

Cam D
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by Cam D »

TwoStroke Institute wrote:What about the gearbox? What sort of final gearing can it pull? That will make or break it.
When I read the rules, it made me wonder how they will enforce some of them. Like only having 1 extra option per gear. They will have iquite a few officials floating around to police it.
Yamaha... Japanese for "Two dog's - One steak"- Japh the wise.

TwoStroke Institute
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by TwoStroke Institute »

I more mean the YZF is only a 5 sp with a short primary ratio that = good acceleration but not a very high top speed unless it can pull 1:1 final gearing.
If Jesus had ridden, he would have rode a two stroke

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Cam D wrote:Will you guys be going for the in-house mapping option or will you be sending a couple of complete engine setups in?
Have they decided what fuel they are running?
Have they decided what tyres they are running?
Will you be limited to the amount for testing etc? Is testing time/venue limited?
Gear changes will be a bit of a hassle, splitting the cases requires supervision by an official etc
Those rules are the FIM rules for MOTOGP MOTO3. The bike we are building will conform to those rules with one exception we will run our own ECU and datalogging, our bike will be eligable to run in CEV in fact we plan to run it there later this year. MOTO3 at MOTOGP is already oversubscribed with the current 125 and MOTO2 teams so it is unlikely we will even get a wildcard chance there although if the project is good enough we will try.

Fuel is control fuel (ENI)
Tyres will be Dunlop
Testing is unlimited
Most of the new engines have cassette gearboxes we dont... but we did run this thing a year ago and have made some changes in this area

TwoStroke Institute wrote:I more mean the YZF is only a 5 sp with a short primary ratio that = good acceleration but not a very high top speed unless it can pull 1:1 final gearing.
Yea thats one of our considerations.......but see above

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Another day some more work Image

TwoStroke Institute
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by TwoStroke Institute »

I have to ask why not get one of the new Honda NSF's?
If Jesus had ridden, he would have rode a two stroke

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

TwoStroke Institute wrote:I have to ask why not get one of the new Honda NSF's?
Where's the fun in that ? Whilst the NSF will no doubt have the best engine I was a little dissapointed in the chassis which is an RS125 with a different swing arm, who knows we may end up with one, the idea of this one is to do a load of learning before one make becomes dominant. there are also some considerations regarding the NSF fueling system. Lastly there are none about at the mo.....

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Clayman
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by Clayman »

Interesting project, if you have any thoughts of making your own bodywork I could do the job, I have a clay modelling / prototype workshop.

How high do you rew it?
11300 is standard I think, gone far beyond that?

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RatsMC
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by RatsMC »

Clayman wrote:Interesting project, if you have any thoughts of making your own bodywork I could do the job, I have a clay modelling / prototype workshop.
Brilliant. I swear if we could gather the combined capabilities of the members of this forum we could build some killer bikes. Too bad we are spread out all over the world.

Perhaps we need to attempt a crowdsourced build.

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Thanks for the interest guys. Would love to have some different bodywork we went for the stuff we have because its the most aero set we have found, it may not look like the most modern but physics dont change no matter how old!!
Whilst I cannot give you details the engine revs to 13700 with rev limiter cut in at 14000, although with the nature of the 4t engine we have not seen the rider rev above 13500, no need as the pwer is very linear fron 10000 up. we are currently formulating a way to reduce the inlet tract length which may mean we gain peak higher in the rev range - but we already know we have as much peak as the other MOTO3 engines so far released (Tm, Honda, KTM )

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Clayman
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by Clayman »

RatsMC wrote: Brilliant. I swear if we could gather the combined capabilities of the members of this forum we could build some killer bikes. Too bad we are spread out all over the world.
Perhaps we need to attempt a crowdsourced build.
As long as I have a frame mockup distance is not a problem for me, I have tried long distance work communication it with good results.
oldboyonrgv wrote:Thanks for the interest guys. Would love to have some different bodywork we went for the stuff we have because its the most aero set we have found, it may not look like the most modern but physics dont change no matter how old!!
Whilst I cannot give you details the engine revs to 13700 with rev limiter cut in at 14000, although with the nature of the 4t engine we have not seen the rider rev above 13500, no need as the pwer is very linear fron 10000 up. we are currently formulating a way to reduce the inlet tract length which may mean we gain peak higher in the rev range - but we already know we have as much peak as the other MOTO3 engines so far released (Tm, Honda, KTM )
The fairing you selected is aerodynamic yes, but don't neglect the value of having your own look when seeking partners, media coverage etc.

13700 and 77 bore with linear power is good, do you know the bore of the Ioda/TM bike?
I guess the 14000 / 81 limit is quite well formulated, but has anyone gone for 81mm?

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

The TM engine in the IOda project bike = Bore and Stroke : 77 x 53,6, they are quoting 40BHP for this engine.....
I dont know about the others, but basicly to reach 14k you dont need the 81MM bore

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Sorry its been a bit quiet regarding the build, I had to reign in a bit! have no fear the bike has now been built and parts are currently out for final finishing, I will post a picture as soon as it all comes back. We did intend to run the bike earlier than this but some design and technology changes have slowed us down! each change has a knock on effect so to do one thing you end up doing three (such is the nature of a new build)
Some facts
dry weight 74Kg
static BHP 46 (still have to test with airbox and crankcase venting system)
We now have fuel injection as an option (above figures are on carb)
6 speed box now available

wet weight 82Kg
rider weight 51Kg
So we will be adding weight to bring it up to FIM spec (148Kg combined)

Current thoughts are to run the Bike at CEV and BSB, we are not in a postion to satisfy the FIM rules regarding parts supply and manufactuer etc for MOTOGP as we are only a small team.

Total cost brings us in at less than 20K Euro

dave pearce
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by dave pearce »

NSF 250 Honda fastest in 1st practice at Valencia CEV :o

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Yea the Monlau one - thats as close to a works Honda as you can get

dave pearce
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by dave pearce »

You have missed the point. The fact is a 250 fourstroke is on pole.
Works or not, the lap time would have put this bike right at the sharp end of
last weeks GP at Valencia.
Some respect should be given to Honda for this historic achievement.

oldboyonrgv
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Dave I was actually gob smacked by that lap time!.

dave pearce
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by dave pearce »

One fact regarding Valencia 125/Moto was the failure to qualify of the very professional French
Martial Garcia team. It is now obvious that a Moto X derived engine is a complete waste of time.
To suggest otherwise is being disingenuous in the extreme.It gives me no pleasure to say this as I have designed and built many Race winning Moto X engined road racers. BUT this was for club type
events. THIS (Moto3) is the REAL thing.

Dave Pearce

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Domino
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Re: MOTO3 project

Post by Domino »

Cycle news has an interview with Shuhei Nakamoto and in it there is an interesting quote regarding the NSF250R. In it he basically built for the "newcomers" and that it won't be competitive against the likes of KTM etc in Moto3. I don't know how much of that is posturing but I presume that if Honda fields a factory supported team the bike will be competitive.

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