)I'm with Jonzie on this, it's the reason that I listed Stoner as DOTM in the MOTM - Le Mans thread. I think that he's being too impatient and pushing a bit too hard early in the going. As for the "it's because I'm following slower guys", BS. If that were true then why isn't he falling on his butt consistently during practice and qualifying? He's behind more slow guys then over races. He's always been known for being a quick starter. I think that the characteristics of the 'Stones have changed a bit and that is also a bit of a factor. Of course, we can't discount the fact that they've also changed the front/rear balance a bit to get some grip back on the rear which could also contribute to the loss of grip on the front. I think a lot of it comes down to him, you don't win the race in the first few laps but you can lose it then.Jonzie wrote:. . . . . He either cannot feel the limit during the race or he can feel it but he's to impatient to get in the front or a combination of the 2.
But doesn't give much credence to the other half of Stoner's statement from the post race interview where he said that Hayden isn't crashing out every second race because he's not pushing as hard or riding as fast. Seems a little disingenuous to say riding slow makes the front go *and* riding fast makes the front go in the same interview. Maybe I misunderstood him?Richo wrote:Interesting article, the last answer Nicky gives here does give some credence to Casy's comment about the front not hooking up as well when he is held up by slower riders.And then the last seven-eight laps, when I started braking harder, trying to make up time on the brakes, brakes, and the harder I was braking, actually the better it was on a few corners, on corner entry. I've did all weekend with full load, because I've seen the first two races, so hard for me in the beginning. I've set my bike up to go with full load.
Rusty - I'm wondering whether it's not a very complex bag of problems that sometimes all conspire to shake the thing out of the groove. I'm thinking along the lines of a combination of frame, fork and swing arm stiffness and resonances plus tyre reaction plus weight balance. If the tyres - especially the front - are either not particularly consistent - and how often have we heard in the last six months of people in every camp not seeming to be able to find a consistent setting between tyres even in the one practice session? - then that would invalidate the data from earlier runs.Rusty Bucket USA wrote:I guess a different way of saying what I'm trying to suggest goes like this:
Enough has changed in the weight balance on the bike since last year (rider mass, engine character, other "secret" design changes) that they have a problem on a full tank that they haven't had before. Issues with BridgeStone become a chicken-vs.-egg question and are likely inextricably linked.
Whether it's as simple as there's more rear grip than he was used to and that's throwing off the balance during full-tank, or whether all those changes are not kosher with (some of) the front tires this year, or both, I don't know... but that's what it looks like to me.
It could be interpreted that Hayden is experiencing the same problems, but is a little more prudent in managing it. Whether that's just the way he is, or is the lesson he learns taking longer runs in free practice, I guess, is the big question.
Rusty - thanks for the heads-up, as I said it seemed to be too upright to be the actual crash in action. However, two things occur to me: firstly, that Stoner's comment of 'we had a couple of moments with the rear' would, to me, be somewhat of an understatement, since the damn thing was fairly obviously trying to throw him over the bars.. The second point - and I think we have just about thrashed this subject out for the moment - is a more subtle one. Accepting on face value his assertion that he had sought to reproduce front-end problems in practice and failed (though we all don't know whether he tried on varying fuel loads, though that would seem a pretty basic step to take) but the rear end was occupying his thoughts, perhaps it wasn't such an elementary mistake on his part to place faith in the front end even at such an early stage in the race. Wrong, as is evident, but not necessarily obdurate or not properly considered on the facts he had to date.Rusty Bucket USA wrote:(P.S.: Oscar, I'm not sure exactly where that picture of Stoner was taken, but it's not the right part of the track to be in proximity to the crash. It could be from the lap before (which would be in the broadcast), just past the point where he crashed.)
RBU, that was my conclusion after his previous crash and I'm even more convinced of it now, seems a bit simple really so that means both you and I should step away from the computer or we should be running a MotoGp team. I would prefer the latterRusty Bucket USA wrote:I don't know what conclusions can be drawn from it, but it still sort of suggests he (Stoner) needs more time practicing full-tank, and maybe needed only one more lap before pushing as hard as he did.
sir_nj wrote:...seems a bit simple really so that means both you and I should step away from the computer or we should be running a MotoGp team. I would prefer the latter
I reckon that's spot on - he wanted to at the least tack onto Lorenzo's back wheel, I'm thinking...Jester wrote: I bet he was lining up to pass Pedrosa right after this turn.
I really don't think there is anyone who is mentally tougher. Perhaps a milk shake would set him back, but I doubt that even this front end mystery will slow him down.Jester wrote:I'm hoping he stays strong mentally through all this and doesn't let it chip away at his confidence.
Perhaps you gave the wizards at the corporate site the idea...CLX wrote:Is this the first time ever the same 3 guys win races on consecutive wekeends? Espargaro, Elias and Lorenzo at both jerez and Le Mans.
The conclusion you can(did) draw is that Nicky rode a smart,steady,professional race,if only by running lap two slower ,then feeling it and picking up the pace.He did not have a bike capable of going as fast as the winners,so he went as fast as he could,when he could. Determining that is the trick. Casey did not do this. He fell . Conclusion drawn .This is a results based activity. You put it in black and white. How to remedy it?? First step is to say "I messed up. I am not fast when I am on the ground. I cannot win the race on the ground.I will no longer use the term "slower rider" to describe the number 4 finisher(or anyone else) to my DNF,particularly based on the second lap of a race."Rusty Bucket USA wrote:Okay, it's finally time to bring this up (since no one else has), not that it provides any answers...
Looking at the lap charts, the great bulk of Hayden's race was in the 1:35.1 - 1:35.6 bracket. Two cold laps to start the race and the rest of the race below 1:36 (though, curiously, the last lap, avoiding and passing Pedrosa, was his slowest "race" lap), with only 4 above 1:35.6 and 2 of those above 1:35.64. That's pretty close to what I call a "metronome race". He's the highest placing rider with no 1:34's. I think this only reinforces his quote that he "...couldn't have gone .2 faster...".
The "slower riders" was Hayden's Lap 2, where he ceded .8 seconds and the position to Stoner. The entire rest of the race (save for 6 laps - the above mentioned 4, plus two between 1:35.57 and 1:35.6) Hayden bettered what was Stoner's fast lap (of 2), including Hayden's Lap 3 which was nearly identical to Stoner's Lap 2; the last sector they ran together was .35 sec slower for Hayden.
Again, I don't know what conclusions can be drawn from it, but it still sort of suggests he (Stoner) needs more time practicing full-tank, and maybe needed only one more lap before pushing as hard as he did.
Kallio has had continuing front end set up problems and also couple of crashes where I recall him saying the front just went on a neutral stage just before getting on the gas. AFAIK all GP10s should have more or less the same chassis.ieism wrote:Didn't hear any complaints about mysterious front-end problems from any of the satelite Ducati riders.....Any thoughts on that? Are they using an older chassis that doesn't have the front end problems, or is it pretty much the same as the factory bikes?
