1000cc coming back - 2012 -

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Faster1
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1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by Faster1 »

Rejoice!! This story just lifted from "motociclismo.es" ..

"The 800’s are unpopular not only with fans, but with riders too. The displacement change from 990cc to 800cc, that was originally proposed to limit horsepower and reduce top speeds (it didn’t work) forced all the manufacturers to redesign a new bike costing millions of dollars in R&D, now with the world trying to climb out of the economic crisis and manufacturers reeling from their losses, Dorna’s CEO Carmelo Ezpeleta has come out again with the idea of going back to the 1000cc.
As the rules enforcing the 800 class end at the 2011 season, we could see the 1000’s back in 2012, only if there were to be an unanimous agreement among the manufacturers, but at least they’re going to be talking about it this weekend at Valencia and that is at least a step in the right direction."


I can't see any manufacturer not being on board with the vote to reverse the decision. Increased displacement is still the cheapest way to get more power.
.

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carty
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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by carty »

8-)

Much easier to see the relevance to road bikes at that displacement too. Now I wonder if it would be the 'spec-engine' route?

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RatsMC
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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by RatsMC »

That copy looks remarkably similar to our own David Emmett's



http://www.motomatters.com/news/2009/11 ... 000cc.html

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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by mmmexico »

You can only hope...may be in this rush to economize, they might reconsider a production based engine...it seems that all of these manufacturers have built enormously successful liter bikes.

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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by TwoStroke Institute »

Brilliant so after all the mountains spent on the 800's with a whisk of the pen we go back to square 1. Wouldn't removing the fuel limit just achieve the same ends.That being not having to run super lean with an array of fuel saving electronics just to get to the end of the race.Much cheaper than the typical knee jerk reactions we see from Dorna's esteemed CEO.More importantly if Dorna wish to attract private teams/constructors they have to have some long term stabilty with rules. The new Immotech team must be cringing after reading that.
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common
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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by common »

"That contract states that no changes may be made to the engine capacity without a unanimous decision by all of the manufacturers in the MSMA."
Anyone notice this. If it saves money and keeps them racing, an unanimous decicion can't be that hard to get before 2012.

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Dr. Gellar
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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by Dr. Gellar »

This ought to be very interesting. It is definitely good news, though I'm going to wait to learn of further details going along with this change before I get too excited. I'm hoping the new 1,000cc formula, once it is all ironed out, will include technical regulations that allow for more than simply 4-cylinder machines to be competitive. Unlike the old 990cc formula, for example, it would be cool to see regs that allow twin-cylinder machines to be a viable option, while still leaving the potential for the other cylinder number configurations as it was during the early days of the 990cc four-stroke era. Technical diversity in MotoGP is a good thing, and will likely attract more manufacturers to the series. Something which is badly needed...

But speaking of 4-cylinder machines....I'm curious. I wonder what Michael Czysz and his team at MotoCzysz think about this proposed change? Will they reconsider taking another crack at creating an American MotoGP race bike with the C1 990, with the extra time available to further develop it before the 2012 MotoGP season?? Or is that something the company is even interested in anymore??? I for one would love to see they try.... :)

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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by lucy »

Dr. Gellar wrote:TTechnical diversity in MotoGP is a good thing, and will likely attract more manufacturers to the series. Something which is badly needed...
Technical diversity is one thing that MotoGP needs to a far lesser degree. It just adds cost for the teams but doesn't really do anything for TV and sponsorship revenue.

Carmelo's plan is transparently obviously Moto1 in 2012 with spec. production derived 1,000cc engines. I'm not sure if the old fiend can pull if off but I'm certain that's the intention.

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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by TwoStroke Institute »

Seeing he threatened to introduce 1000cc engines earlier this year if the factories didn't start to lease engines,I would have no doubt that's on the Ezpelito cunning master plan for world domination.
History has proved a single engine configuration rapidly establishes it's self as the best for the job under the current rules. Today the in line 4 with a long bang firing order has proved dominant, back in the good old days it was the 500 cc V 4 2t with long bang firing order. With the V5 990cc in between proving dominant.
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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by JoeKing »

TwoStroke Institute wrote: Wouldn't removing the fuel limit just achieve the same ends.That being not having to run super lean with an array of fuel saving electronics just to get to the end of the race

Of course it would, but it defeats the "higher moral" environmental portion of the rule. To some degree (probably large) the fuel regulations were conceived as a self imposed "noblesse oblige" by the manufacturers/DORNA to demonstrate the "social conscience" of MotoGP. By requiring the manufacturers to meet (ridiculous) consumption "goals", it must have been believed, that a trickle down of the "new" technologies would be implimented into production vehicles. These goals, while (seemingly) admirable; much like CO2 emission targets, are only attainable when "new" laws of physics are "passed" & the law of diminishing returns is repealled.

What we have gotten instead, is enormously expensive electronics with ABSOLUTELY no relevance or potential for implementation outside the racetrack. The "racing derived breakthrough" technologies are pipe dreams.


Dr. Geller

Please refrain from invoking MotoCzysz in discussions of "credible" MotoGP contenders. Has he in over 5 years done ANYTHING resembling a race team? Have you ever seen a (3rd party) dyno sheet or lap time? I suspect the "sucker list" dried up & he's on to easier (US Gov't DOE) pickings for his con.

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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by MarvoGing »

lucy wrote:Carmelo's plan is transparently obviously Moto1 in 2012 with spec. production derived 1,000cc engines. I'm not sure if the old fiend can pull if off but I'm certain that's the intention.
I'm sure you're right. But the Flamini's seem to have tolerated Moto2, (I dont know why,) I just dont see them allowing premier class to use production derived engines.
Last edited by MarvoGing on Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by Albert »

MarvoGing wrote:
lucy wrote:Carmelo's plan is transparently obviously Moto1 in 2012 with spec. production derived 1,000cc engines. I'm not sure if the old fiend can pull if off but I'm certain that's the intention.
I'm sure you're right. But the Flamini's seem to have tolerated Moto2, I dont know why, I just dont see them allowing premier class to use production derived engines.
When we met with our leader (Dr K) at Donington he said that there had just been an announcement from the Flamini's in response to Carmelo and co and their idea of using production based engines.

The response was that they'd sue!
I believe I'm growing sceptical of cynicism!

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lucy
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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by lucy »

MarvoGing wrote: But the Flamini's seem to have tolerated Moto2, (I dont know why,)
I think it's because there isn't a case there. For a start where do they bring the action (Italy, Spain, Switzerland, all 3?) and how do they demonstrate any loss and link it to some technical arcanae on the differences and similarities between the spec. engine and the production engines in WSBK/WSS? In the final analysis it doesn't cost Gruppo FG a single euro if Moto1 runs with production based engines. Why are they going to spend large amounts of money and energy doing a Jarndyce vs Jarndyce over something thats not actually going to cost them anything?

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Dr. Gellar
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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by Dr. Gellar »

lucy wrote:
Dr. Gellar wrote:TTechnical diversity in MotoGP is a good thing, and will likely attract more manufacturers to the series. Something which is badly needed...
Technical diversity is one thing that MotoGP needs to a far lesser degree. It just adds cost for the teams but doesn't really do anything for TV and sponsorship revenue.

Carmelo's plan is transparently obviously Moto1 in 2012 with spec. production derived 1,000cc engines. I'm not sure if the old fiend can pull if off but I'm certain that's the intention.
With regards to technical diversity, I couldn't disagree more. Since new displacement regulations are on their way for 2012, setting them up so that a MotoGP bike, whether it be powered by a twin, triple, four, five or whatever, can be reasonably competitive shouldn't add much of any cost to the teams. What it does potentially do is give an incentive for a manufacturer (whether already involved, or better yet, new to the series) who doesn't necessarily want to follow the status quo (in this case, four cylinder machines) to try something different. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion, as it could very well benefit the series.

I do agree with you about Carmelo's idea of what these new 1,000cc powerplants should be. I personally like the idea supported by FIM president Vito Ippolito better, that the engines should be "production" racing-only engines like a TZ750 or TZ250. Or something along those lines.

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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by lucy »

Dr. Gellar wrote: With regards to technical diversity, I couldn't disagree more. Since new displacement regulations are on their way for 2012, setting them up so that a MotoGP bike, whether it be powered by a twin, triple, four, five or whatever, can be reasonably competitive shouldn't add much of any cost to the teams. What it does potentially do is give an incentive for a manufacturer (whether already involved, or better yet, new to the series) who doesn't necessarily want to follow the status quo (in this case, four cylinder machines) to try something different. There's nothing wrong with that in my opinion, as it could very well benefit the series.
The great Moto2 experiment, so far, demonstrates the opposite; the way to get a large number of teams involved is to have very tight technical regulations that remove any need to consider engine design.

Nobody who matters in this process has the slightest interest in motorcycles or the racing thereof - all they care about is money. If they can get the same, or perhaps even more, TV and sponsorship revenue using cheap spec. engines then that's what will happen.

My opinion is that if The Deuce plays well with the fearsomely reactionary motorcycle racing viewer Dorna will proclaim it a shining triumph, the future of motorsports and the last, best hope of mankind in general leading to a eerily similar Moto1 1,000cc formula in 2012.

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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by Dr. Gellar »

JoeKing wrote:Dr. Geller

Please refrain from invoking MotoCzysz in discussions of "credible" MotoGP contenders. Has he in over 5 years done ANYTHING resembling a race team? Have you ever seen a (3rd party) dyno sheet or lap time? I suspect the "sucker list" dried up & he's on to easier (US Gov't DOE) pickings for his con.
Uuuuum...no, no.....and no. :lol:

I'm sure if the MotoCzysz effort had the proper funding for his original endeavor, things may have been a little different. Plus, their timing was unfortunate as that by the time MotoCzysz was showing their first 990, the MotoGP regulations were on their way to going 800cc. And now that the MotoGP regs are heading back to 1,000cc...I just wonder if Michael Czysz is even interested anymore.

Supposedly they are hooking up with Bajaj Auto to create some new generation automobile, and I wonder if part of the deal might include Bajaj Auto funding some of MotoCzysz's own efforts? Pure speculation there, but anyhow....like them or not, MotoCzysz's effort to create a high-tech all-American motorcycle in the C1 990 (let alone a four-stroke MotoGP bike from scratch) was more than can be said for pretty much any other American manufacturer's effort.
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RatsMC
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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by RatsMC »

JoeKing wrote:
TwoStroke Institute wrote: Wouldn't removing the fuel limit just achieve the same ends.That being not having to run super lean with an array of fuel saving electronics just to get to the end of the race

Of course it would, but it defeats the "higher moral" environmental portion of the rule. To some degree (probably large) the fuel regulations were conceived as a self imposed "noblesse oblige" by the manufacturers/DORNA to demonstrate the "social conscience" of MotoGP. By requiring the manufacturers to meet (ridiculous) consumption "goals", it must have been believed, that a trickle down of the "new" technologies would be implimented into production vehicles. These goals, while (seemingly) admirable; much like CO2 emission targets, are only attainable when "new" laws of physics are "passed" & the law of diminishing returns is repealled.

What we have gotten instead, is enormously expensive electronics with ABSOLUTELY no relevance or potential for implementation outside the racetrack. The "racing derived breakthrough" technologies are pipe dreams.

Actually, the fuel limits were another means of limiting top speed. The environment was never a consideration. The thinking was that if you only had so much fuel, you would have to run slower. What they failed to consider was that this is racing and the teams will find ways to go fast with the same fuel even if it means ruining the racing.

To TSI's point, opening up the fuel limits would have helped but it would not have solved the problems as neatly. Increasing the capacity makes the horsepower cheaper - at a greater rate than allowing more fuel. This not only gives the engineers more freedom it also makes the entry of other builders more possible since the engineering hurdle has been lowered slightly.

All of that said, if they do not increase fuel capacity when they make the switch, things will be just as dumb as they are now. Maybe more so.

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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by JoeKing »

RatsMC wrote:
JoeKing wrote:
TwoStroke Institute wrote: Wouldn't removing the fuel limit just achieve the same ends.That being not having to run super lean with an array of fuel saving electronics just to get to the end of the race

Of course it would, but it defeats the "higher moral" environmental portion of the rule. To some degree (probably large) the fuel regulations were conceived as a self imposed "noblesse oblige" by the manufacturers/DORNA to demonstrate the "social conscience" of MotoGP. By requiring the manufacturers to meet (ridiculous) consumption "goals", it must have been believed, that a trickle down of the "new" technologies would be implimented into production vehicles. These goals, while (seemingly) admirable; much like CO2 emission targets, are only attainable when "new" laws of physics are "passed" & the law of diminishing returns is repealled.

What we have gotten instead, is enormously expensive electronics with ABSOLUTELY no relevance or potential for implementation outside the racetrack. The "racing derived breakthrough" technologies are pipe dreams.

The environment was never a consideration.
Sure about that?
http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2008/Big+ ... ental+push
As an avid observer of the "Climate change" debate.... NOTHING involving fossil fuel use & CO2 (especially) in Europe..isn't considered.
In a world devasted by CO2 emissions & the effects of Peak oil; wouldn't MotoGP be high on the list of "frivolous" wastes of resources? Wouldn't practicing modest restraint & being seen as a technological leader demonstrate being part of the solution..not the problem?

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RatsMC
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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by RatsMC »

JoeKing wrote:
RatsMC wrote:
The environment was never a consideration.
Sure about that?
http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2008/Big+ ... ental+push
As an avid observer of the "Climate change" debate.... NOTHING involving fossil fuel use & CO2 (especially) in Europe..isn't considered.
In a world devasted by CO2 emissions & the effects of Peak oil; wouldn't MotoGP be high on the list of "frivolous" wastes of resources? Wouldn't practicing modest restraint & being seen as a technological leader demonstrate being part of the solution..not the problem?

Ummm...I'm lost. That is an article about riders recycling. Really not at all indicative of the drivers behind decisions on technical regulations.

Do you really think that dropping fuel capacity by 3 liters per race (with no limits on practice for a sum total savings of less than a thsouand liters per year) is going to make anyone think that MotoGP is being considerate of environmental concerns? Even suggesting that would be laughed at by even the most unconcerned citizen. Beyond that, if Dorna had any interest in limiting fuel for public relations concerns you can be certain that they would have done everything to capitalize on it. If they are willing to stoop to the level of that recycle article mentioned above, actually changing the rulebook is going to get a lot more press.

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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by JoeKing »

I'm speaking about symbolism & perception...recycling & resource conservation demonstrate "environmental awareness". Of course the ACTUAL fuel savings are insignificant but so was attempting to impose a speed limit ( :shock: ) on the Autobahn to reduce hyrocarbon emissions... (it actually increased).

I just see this as a "get out of jail free" measure that would be at their disposal if ever needed. Being perceived as an unrepentant plunderer of mother earth isn't something MotoGP wants to be seen as.

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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by dag221 »

In response to the new revelation that "production motorcycles" are not allowed in MotoGP and that "production engines" would be. I seem to recall in the early days after the demise of the 2-strokes the WCM ( WMC ?) team showed up with a heavily modified Yamaha R1 engine in their own chassis and were simply refused
to be allowed to race with it because it was a production engine. I know times have changed and obviously the interpretations as well....but if the wording in the contract was the same then as it is now they should have been allowed to race it. Obviously back then Dorna did not want such machines on the grid as it wasn't in their best interest, whereas now it clearly is in their best interest.

Just a little tidbit I recalled when reading the page this morning....

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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by Rusty Bucket USA »

Mr. King, I hope that I am inferring the correct amount of sarcasm in your posts... if so, then I probably agree with you.

Dorna's "problem", if one really exists, on the environmental front is that they aren't really saying anything (for which, I applaud them). As I have said before, if they are going to get dragged in to some kind of argument about green-ness, MotoGP has every right to point everywhere else and say, "We ARE the solution! Motorcycle racing is already the most efficient form of any kind of motor racing..."

I haven't actually done the math on this, but the entire MotoGP field uses as much fuel in a race weekend as something like one or two F1 team(s) do(es) in one of their race weekends. And (so far) MotoGP hasn't made their teams waste billions of Euros and toxic chemicals they can't afford on KERS.

TSI, at least they're willing to look back at something that was working, instead of perpetuating the problem. Far better they say "oops" and own up to the mistake, than to keep working the (excrement) sandwich they've made. After all, it's still only money... ;)

If it was up to me, I'd suggest having a go at a year or two of more fuel in the same 800cc formula - to get a realistic answer to TSI's question - before completely writing off the whole package. But, I also believe it would be better to see the bigger motors return, and more affordable torque back on the menu.
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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by Faster1 »

dag221 wrote:the WCM ( WMC ?) team showed up with a heavily modified Yamaha R1 engine in their own chassis and were simply refused
,,if my memory serves me,, they actually raced before being banned,, good thing though because they were back marking lap-ees,, and were in danger of being rear ended.

Personally, I would hate to see a glorified Superbike GP in place of what we have now,, it would make current lap and speed records stand forever,,, whats the point
.

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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by MarvoGing »

I see 'racing' as 'allowable justifiable conscience free excess' for and on behalf of the majority of us who mostly get our racing pleasure vicariously, rather than 'on the street'. It's a displacement activity for the spear chucking and sabre tooth tiger hunting, which fell from favour a long time ago, but is nonetheless intrinsic to our psyche. Im all in favour of a greener future, but this is racing, which by (my) definition stands apart. So lets drop the pretentious fuel limits and get back to some healthy horsepower.Who are we trying to kid? It's lip service. Yes bikes are a relatively green form of motor-racing but the fuel is used by the vast shipments flown around the planet from circuit to circuit to circuit, not a few pesky breathless bikes on a track. We can get our green credentials elsewhere.
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Dr. Gellar
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Re: 1000cc coming back - 2012 -

Post by Dr. Gellar »

lucy wrote:The great Moto2 experiment, so far, demonstrates the opposite; the way to get a large number of teams involved is to have very tight technical regulations that remove any need to consider engine design.

Nobody who matters in this process has the slightest interest in motorcycles or the racing thereof - all they care about is money. If they can get the same, or perhaps even more, TV and sponsorship revenue using cheap spec. engines then that's what will happen.

My opinion is that if The Deuce plays well with the fearsomely reactionary motorcycle racing viewer Dorna will proclaim it a shining triumph, the future of motorsports and the last, best hope of mankind in general leading to a eerily similar Moto1 1,000cc formula in 2012.
Very true about Moto2, but MotoGP proper IMO should never go down this path. Engine design and diversity should very much be a part of the MotoGP series, even if it is in a restricted form of sorts to cut costs to some degree.
You mention the large number of teams entered into Moto2, and that is really great. But MotoGP needs to have and should encourage a variety of engine manufacturers to compete and be involved, something the Moto2 class totally avoids altogether. As long as the rules allow for it...the competition between bikes of different engine configurations and/or types from various manufacturers (each with their own brand identity and philosophy), to me anyhow, is part of the sport.

You may be right about those involved only giving a damn about money, and caring less about motorcycles or the sport. And that is a bitter shame if indeed completely true... :(

Of that, I have no doubt... :lol:

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