MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

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Tourn46
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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by Tourn46 »

p4p1 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:26 pm
Is it any different from when Marquez and Rossi collided in Argentina? Rossi took a line that Marquez wasn’t expecting and Marc’s front tyre his Rossi’s rear. There is a huge speed differential between the two but the actions are essentially the same IMO.
We disagree regularly it seems :lol: Marc had already hit Rossi once in the corner, he didn't really need to be where he was - front wheel up against Rossi's rear. Morbidelli had literally no choice, he was a passenger.

I don't believe Zarco did anything 'wrong', he drifted wide because of his line through the corner. Go listen to Dovi's explanation, he said something wasn't right and the view from Rins' bike is very telling, it shows that Zarco was pushed wide because of his trajectory through the kink.

Like I say, I'm not on a witch hunt for Zarco, it was an honest pass, but there was a consequence - it really has nothing to do with intent, it's maybe more about decision making. I'm also of the opinion that his penalty in Brno was extremely harsh and Pol was in the wrong.

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by p4p1 »

Tourn46 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:43 am
p4p1 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 12:26 pm
Is it any different from when Marquez and Rossi collided in Argentina? Rossi took a line that Marquez wasn’t expecting and Marc’s front tyre his Rossi’s rear. There is a huge speed differential between the two but the actions are essentially the same IMO.
We disagree regularly it seems :lol: Marc had already hit Rossi once in the corner, he didn't really need to be where he was - front wheel up against Rossi's rear. Morbidelli had literally no choice, he was a passenger.

I don't believe Zarco did anything 'wrong', he drifted wide because of his line through the corner. Go listen to Dovi's explanation, he said something wasn't right and the view from Rins' bike is very telling, it shows that Zarco was pushed wide because of his trajectory through the kink.

Like I say, I'm not on a witch hunt for Zarco, it was an honest pass, but there was a consequence - it really has nothing to do with intent, it's maybe more about decision making. I'm also of the opinion that his penalty in Brno was extremely harsh and Pol was in the wrong.
Rossi’s line certainly took him by surprise, although I agree with you that Marc didn’t need to be exactly where he was. Much like I believe that Zarco’s line took Morbidelli by surprise. I don’t blame either Franco Or Zarco for the crash, however I find it interesting/frustrating that it is overlooked that Franco also had the choice to get off the throttle or brake a bit after Zarco passed him. I’m sure the slipstream and the speed differential between Ducati and Yamaha played a part as well. I’m sure if Franco knew Zarco was going to be where he was, he probably would have rolled off the throttle but Zarco took a line he didn’t expect and the consequences could have been much worse.

I’ve seen other mention that the kink is possibly not that safe for bikes. Maybe it’s more that the kink isn’t safe to pass on. I’m not sure. I understand you’re not on a witch-hunt for Zarco, my issue is that Rossi seems to be and has been since Zarco put a hard but fair move on him in Argentina. As the bikes are getting closer in performance it makes sense that the riders have to take more risks and be more aggressive. It might not be moto2 but gone are the days of huge tyre and bike advantages which allowed the riders with the best equipment to ride within their limit to get the results they wanted.

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by hdot »

Elton wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:26 am
A lot of people are having a go at Pol for being erratic, but really he's proven himself to be a consistent, safe rider over the years. The Brno accident wasn't his fault. The Austria accident he was perhaps more culpable for, not being careful enough when rejoining the track, but nobody will be kicking themselves more than he with Binder showing what the bike should be capable of.

Zarco does deserve some scrutiny though. It's not that he rides dangerously per se, but he just puts his bike in bad places, where it's more likely that a 'racing incident' could take place. When he passed Pol at Brno he didn't get far enough past at the late apex for Pol to be able to see he was there, he would have been better served to follow Pol and get the drive on him into turn 3. In Austria he Made a mistake by approaching the kink at too shallow an angle, which pushed him wide into Morbidelli's path. Again he wasn't careful enough. And his history is sprinkled with similar passes, I remember one in Moto2 with Sam Lowes distinctly.
Huh? Brno was Pol's fault. He ran wide, then cut back onto the racing line without looking despite having a line of sight Zarco didn't. Then he did the same exact thing- same turn direction and all- at Austria. Zarco does always end up in some shit but neither he nor Olivera were at fault here.

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by kenup283 »

I actually do want to see another view of the Olivera incident. He does look to be rather low with lots of lean and farther out on a part of track that bikes ahead of him were more upright at the place of impact.

The Zarco crash here if we really wanted to analyze one could say both could have avoided it, but neither directly caused it either, in other words a racing incident but I would say Zarco holds the bean for initiating it at that spot which was a bad choice. Point taken that there are certain places that are just to risky to be having racing incidents. This is one of them.

I too saw how close Vinales came and the front tire which looks like inches away from helmet hands off the bars trying to avoid. Also the speed that Morbidellis bike carried across Rossi was mind numbing. That bike carried on all the way to the crash fence, and that after tearing itself to pieces, a clear sign of just how much energy was in it at that point had impact occurred even if a glancing blow would have been unthinkable.

One thing i noticed even after this incident, and the one in Moto2, was the commentators increasing referring to things like 'rubbins racing" and "contact sport"..... I thought wed been thru that before and why they are pumping that aspect up again I cannot fathom. They showed enough of a realization that they nearly found themselves commentating on a multiple fatality situation so to still carry on in that way after surprised me.

I know I am being overly sensitive on this point, its just if we are to look into the aggressive behaviors, the win at all cost, its all about me, each and every corner, ridding habits that some are saying is a bit too prevalent. Than we kinda need to ask ourselves at some point if that is not what we are hyping up with statements like that.

Before I forget, here are a couple frames i snipped from zarcos move up the inside from a trailing onboard camera.

Image

Image

kenup283
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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by kenup283 »

Moving onto other topics I did go back and look at the Moto 3 track limits stuff so I thought to share some of that.

What I should say is you can see an asterixis next to a riders lap on when they exceed track limits and after getting a couple of these you get a warning, then one more and a long lap. What surprised me here was the last lap for some reason was immediately met by a drop one place. Several riders did not exceed at all for the entire race, yet put one foot wrong in a battle in last turn of last lap and got penalized. Whereas the race winner who was marked more than once already earlier in race received no penalty.

The inconsistencies do not stop there. I was able to find cases where riders did not even go onto the green yet were cited as being over track limits, while another case the rider went off track over green paint and onto a connecting part of track not in use to make a pass and was not given an asterixis for exceeding track limits at all for it.

It all feels a bit like playing a game of don't touch the lava with a bunch of third graders who continually change and make up rules for where you can and cant touch the ground without getting burned. I know the riders are told which corners those are going to be and that race direction is going to be penalizing but it seems they need to back off, at least the last lap, and at least points where riders are not making up positions this way but rather saving from having a crash or massive pile up by doing so.

Sorry for all the long words. Here are some pics.

The first set are all ones deemed as exceeding, I captured them at their maximum deviation, and either resulted in warnings if multiple times and earlier in race, or a penalty if done once during last lap at end of race.

Image

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Last edited by kenup283 on Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

kenup283
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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by kenup283 »

This next one is the example I mentioned where rider passed another off track and did not get even a mark acknowledging track limits were exceeded. Of all these this is the only case where position was gained and it is also most risky place on track to be pushing the track limits.

Image



Shifting gears back to MotoGP I thought to include another example of exceeding track limits to gain position, and here like the previous example, no indications that track limits were exceeded.

Image


Don't get me wrong I am not calling for all these to get penalties. Really its only the guys running off on the grass on straight and those squeezing each other into those positions who need a talking too and to be penalized if continues. The rest of these are just examples of how race direction are missing the mark.

Speaking of misses. Did anyone else see, or think they saw, Dovi jump the start in race one... :?

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by Fingernails »

kenup283 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 5:32 am
One thing i noticed even after this incident, and the one in Moto2, was the commentators increasing referring to things like 'rubbins racing" and "contact sport"..... I thought wed been thru that before and why they are pumping that aspect up again I cannot fathom. They showed enough of a realization that they nearly found themselves commentating on a multiple fatality situation so to still carry on in that way after surprised me.
I agree with this. Both of the accidents, Moto2 and MotoGP, could easily have been fatal. I think there's no place for macho attitudes here.

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by Mikesbytes »

I see that Zarco's team has released that Zarco actually brakes later on that lap, which dispels any speculation that he brake mark Morbidelli

BTY I was also wondering about the exceeding of track limits at the start and restart of MotoGP
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mastercraftx1
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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by mastercraftx1 »

Thought it looked to me like Dovi moved at the start also. Maybe he just got that much better start then everyone else. I caught it on one of the replays that they always show of the start. Pretty cool how many different ways we can see things now. I'll have to go back and watch again to see it, hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it.

On those on board shots of Zarco passing Franco it says Rossi onboard down in the corner. Can't be right, Rossi was up ahead and about to enter turn 3. Think might be Binder's onboard camera.

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MiniNinjaMk5
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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

Mother of God.. in all of the years I have watched bikes, that is the worst accident I have ever seen that did not result in a fatality.

I think the last time I saw that expression on Rossi's face was after the death of Simoncelli actually. Definitely a roll of the dice there, I wonder if that will have any impact on his career continuing beyond this year?

They definitely need to do something to the track there as it is inviting that kind of accident - we have seen similar at Imola in the past, but at least here there should be more room to change the track (either flatten that left-hand kink or change the next corner).
I have heard that the owner of Red Bull and the track is planning a restoration of the old track that goes up and around up the hills (which would then get rid of the hairpin right-hand) - that will be incredible if they do, although will be interesting how they can do it with enough runoff etc.

Re. Pol on Olieviera, I agree with the above sentiment that Pol needs to cool it. He gets angry or flustered and it starts to affect his riding, in Brno previously and now here. If he had run wide (which I believe he may have done) it's your responsibility to check what is there when you come back onto the racing line, not just belligerently carry on and demand whoever is behind you will give way. Think that probably explains Miguel's reaction back in the pits, especially as he is probably one of the most gentlemanly/calm riders in the paddock.

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

mastercraftx1 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:48 pm
Thought it looked to me like Dovi moved at the start also. Maybe he just got that much better start then everyone else. I caught it on one of the replays that they always show of the start. Pretty cool how many different ways we can see things now. I'll have to go back and watch again to see it, hadn't thought about it until you mentioned it.
Yes I saw that too. I believe is the current rule though that if you have then stopped (and not beyond the starting point) then you go again when the lights go out that it doesn't count as a jump start?

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Fingernails
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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by Fingernails »

MiniNinjaMk5 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:34 pm
Mother of God.. in all of the years I have watched bikes, that is the worst accident I have ever seen that did not result in a fatality.
Do you rate the accident in MotoGP worse than the Moto2 accident? To me Syahrin's accident in Moto2 looked even worse.
Re. Pol on Olieviera, I agree with the above sentiment that Pol needs to cool it. He gets angry or flustered and it starts to affect his riding, in Brno previously and now here. If he had run wide (which I believe he may have done) it's your responsibility to check what is there when you come back onto the racing line, not just belligerently carry on and demand whoever is behind you will give way. Think that probably explains Miguel's reaction back in the pits, especially as he is probably one of the most gentlemanly/calm riders in the paddock.
I get a feeling that Pol's attitude is changing. I wonder how well he expects to go at Honda compared to Marc.

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by kenup283 »

Correct, as long as not moving when lights go out and no advantage gained, all is good. That was case with Canet in Moto2. A good no call. I like this rule. It’s also a double long lap penalty now vs ride thru which is more suitable and equally enough a deterrent.

What I couldn’t really see with Dovi was that he came to a stop vs a slow roll before taking off. Either way was minor enough that if had to see on replay than not really big enough an advantage to argue about. So again another good no call, but I could have seen them bringing it up later if not other action let’s say for added drama.

Glad it didn’t though and great ride and win by Dovi. Just realized I hadn’t said that yet.

Was also a but intriguing to see the celebrations in his pit box. A handful of mgrs hugging it up and some mechanics arms crossed in background looking at them with less than amused gazes.

Also want to say really good ride by Mir and Suzuki. That holeshot device worked better than the rest of say. Also great to see Mir get the long awaited podium.

Blocking everything else out. Really looking fwd to seeing what they can do next round.

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

Kenup - totally agree about the new false start rules, a change for the better on both counts.
Pitlane run was essentially a DSQ with fields this close (may have been fine when you had 1 minute covering the top 5-6 riders but not these days)
Fingernails wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:27 pm
MiniNinjaMk5 wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:34 pm
Mother of God.. in all of the years I have watched bikes, that is the worst accident I have ever seen that did not result in a fatality.
Do you rate the accident in MotoGP worse than the Moto2 accident? To me Syahrin's accident in Moto2 looked even worse.
Re. Pol on Olieviera, I agree with the above sentiment that Pol needs to cool it. He gets angry or flustered and it starts to affect his riding, in Brno previously and now here. If he had run wide (which I believe he may have done) it's your responsibility to check what is there when you come back onto the racing line, not just belligerently carry on and demand whoever is behind you will give way. Think that probably explains Miguel's reaction back in the pits, especially as he is probably one of the most gentlemanly/calm riders in the paddock.
I get a feeling that Pol's attitude is changing. I wonder how well he expects to go at Honda compared to Marc.
I think both of the accidents were horrendous! Rossi/Vinales' was worse in terms of it making my blood run cold, and that they would almost certainly have been killed had one of those bikes been in different position by 6 inches.

I did close my eyes in both instances though - bikes lying in the track or someone stalling at the start are one of the worst things that can happen in a race.

Do you mean Pol's attitude to racing is changing? I do think that he genuinely thought he had a chance to win both this and next weekend - i think a lot of people did. And I wonder if that was why he was even more fiery than usual!

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by Fingernails »

MiniNinjaMk5 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:34 pm
Do you mean Pol's attitude to racing is changing? I do think that he genuinely thought he had a chance to win both this and next weekend - i think a lot of people did. And I wonder if that was why he was even more fiery than usual!
It's based on a very small amount of information, so should be roundly ignored. But, I'm starting to wonder if Pol has maybe a bit too much self-belief. And by too much I mean the kind of self belief that extends to believing that every bit of track belongs to him and others should get out of his way.

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

Yes I think you are right; all of these guys must have massive self belief otherwise they would not be on that grid, but I think in his case it has swung into belligerence (and has now resulted in two crashes).

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by Fingernails »

MiniNinjaMk5 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 4:26 pm
Yes I think you are right; all of these guys must have massive self belief otherwise they would not be on that grid, but I think in his case it has swung into belligerence (and has now resulted in two crashes).
Yes, that's exactly what I'm thinking. I would be pleased to be wrong.

If I'm not wrong, then I will make a long term prediction. At some point next year Pol will nerf Marc, while Pol is trying to keep up with him.

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by bikermike »

Pol may also be putting himself under a lot of pressure, he was KTM's #1 rider, and gets poached to Honda, then Binder goes and wins a MotoGP.

Getting the Honda slot is a massive ego boost, but it's a place where anything other than a podium is a fail. Now someone else has gone better than him on the same machinery, and he's about to take the hot seat from the current champ's brother. If he felt under pressure to deliver next year before, this must really ratchet stuff up.

Also, as I've said before, the Rossi/Marquez unpleasantness was after 3 flyaways in 4 weekends, the current situation of races every week and staying in the bubble must make it hard to get away from the pressure

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by agro »

Brad Binder 33; I am of the opinion that Brad Binder should be reprimanded or penalized for his opportunistic and optimistic pass on Valentino Rossi in Race 2, on lap 2, at turn 9, in Austria!
After all the stress and carnage in Race 1, for Binder to make that pass, that resulted in both Binder and Rossi running off the track, beyond track limits, onto the paved run-off area.
I hope that Rossi gave him what for after the race!
Yet no mention or discussion about this incident in the media!
But plenty of focus and discussion on the Zarco/Morbidelli and the Espargaro/Oliveira incidents!

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by Fingernails »

agro wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:35 pm
Brad Binder 33; I am of the opinion that Brad Binder should be reprimanded or penalized for his opportunistic and optimistic pass on Valentino Rossi in Race 2, on lap 2, at turn 9, in Austria!
It was a long time ago, but I seem to recall Rossi being quite forceful passing Gibernau, and many others, back in the day.

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by Vmax666 »

There isn’t a racer around who would not of done what zarco did
If you have the power to get by use it ( I don’t believe anyone would roll off the throttle when you have a chance to pass)
Zarco was clearly in front of morbidelli so why didn’t morbidelli see him and slow down, or was he trying to be late on the brakes to get under zarco
The issue was the bikes came back onto the track

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Mikesbytes
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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by Mikesbytes »

In hindsight Morbidelli should of done the under over, ie gone to the left but isn't hindsight a wonderful thing :D Assuming they didn't crash the position that Zarco was in would of made it extremely difficult to overtake into that right hand corner on the inside

Pol was in a very good position to have won his first ever victory after all these years in MotoGP before the red flag, still not an excuse.
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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by kenup283 »

Fingernails wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:42 pm
agro wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:35 pm
Brad Binder 33; I am of the opinion that Brad Binder should be reprimanded or penalized for his opportunistic and optimistic pass on Valentino Rossi in Race 2, on lap 2, at turn 9, in Austria!
It was a long time ago, but I seem to recall Rossi being quite forceful passing Gibernau, and many others, back in the day.
I wouldn’t call for more penalties. There’s enough of that already. The riders involved can talk about it later in the garage if they need to, without cameras and posting videos about it later preferably.

We don’t have to go too far back for any racer to find something, that’s because this is racing. The only talking to for me are the guys riding off grass, and weaving around pushing other about, on that straight.

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by kenup283 »

Vmax666 wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:26 pm
There isn’t a racer around who would not of done what zarco did
If you have the power to get by use it ( I don’t believe anyone would roll off the throttle when you have a chance to pass)
Zarco was clearly in front of morbidelli so why didn’t morbidelli see him and slow down, or was he trying to be late on the brakes to get under zarco
The issue was the bikes came back onto the track
Agree, It could be any number of other things that results in a bike going down the road which makes this same hazard.

We’ve seen Márquez loose the front going around similar type corner at Mugello sending his bike rocketing down the road. Could have that, or something like it, if it rains here that makes it all the more possible too. Mechanical failures are another possibility.

I remember similar after Senna died in F1. I felt it too. Lots wondering why, looking for blame, and how the crash happened. Only later we realized we were all asking the wrong questions.

In a sport that pushes the limits of human and mechanical ability, why the crash happened is not the issue, it’s why the crash resulted in the consequence it did where the focus should be.

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Re: MotoGP R5 16-08-20 Grand Prix von Österreich

Post by Jagbruno »

« In a sport that pushes the limits of human and mechanical ability, why the crash happened is not the issue, it’s why the crash resulted in the consequence it did where the focus should be.« 

Absolutely.
And there lies the responsibility of Herman Tilke for ruining a perfectly good A1 ring layout and the Red Bull circuit owner for having done exactly nothing about it in 20 years.
As a proof, just go to YouTube and watch the the Sato/Herbert F1 incident, 18 years ago, at the exact same place.

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