Rossi could race for four more years

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class
kenup283
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Re: Rossi could race for four more years

Post by kenup283 »

p4p1 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:41 pm
[...big snip...]
I think control tyres showed how huge of an advantage being the getting tyres that suit you are. The wins really dried up for him after they were introduced.
2016 showed how much of an advantage factory Yamahas and Honda’s had because of the electronics. How much of a factor his age has been since 2016 though I don’t know.
Rossi won the championship first year of control tire's and was runner up three other years including 2016 all on control tires. So he's done fine in that regard.

The only miscalculation he made with regard to control tires, which is also the factor that effected performance since 2016, was using the riders safety council to vote a stiffer front tire into use after the 2017 season had just started a few races in. Since then Yamaha fell off like a light switch.

Rossi was searching for feel, but underestimated how much more the stiffer front would help his competion than it would help him. Lorenzo, Zarco were amoung few abstaining in favor of the softer carcas. Lin Jarvis was less than happy about it to put it lightly, citing that it as against the rules to allow riders saftey council to make such choices and should not be allowed.

So the wins only dried up after he instigated this front tire change but other than that one misstep he's navigated spec tires pretty well. Had the series stuck to their rules we might not be having this conversation, but seemed was allowed as a case of "doctor knows best" as the saying goes, and it backfired badly for him and yamaha.

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Tourn46
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Re: Rossi could race for four more years

Post by Tourn46 »

p4p1 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:41 pm
Is it adaption to new equipment? I think it plays a big part.
Is it age? I think it plays a big part.
Is it the strength of the competition? Well, nobody else has proven they can consistently beat Marc... yet. Is this specifically a 'Rossi' problem?
Is it no Jerry Burgess to help sort out his bike? Could well be part of it, don't think either of us are well placed to say.
Is it no electronic, bike or tyre advantages anymore? Shall we go strike off everyone else's achievements because of their machinery? Probably ought to scratch off any champion on an NSR500 too then. I never get why this only ever applies to Rossi.
I think control tyres showed how huge of an advantage being the getting tyres that suit you are. The wins really dried up for him after they were introduced. I mean there's only been 3 other riders to have won a championship on control tyres after all, it's a pretty elite club.
2016 showed how much of an advantage factory Yamahas and Honda’s had because of the electronics. How much of a factor his age has been since 2016 though I don’t know. Definitely helped satellite bikes catch up, however, surely the factory teams still hold the aces.
You know, you really try to complicate things... the guy is 41 years old. Time moves on, the body ages, competition evolves to beat the 'target'... Rossi was that target, now Marc is that target. Personally I can't see past 25 years of GP racing, getting older, bikes changing year on year, motivation to keep going... for me it is all time related and MotoGP riders are mortal too apparently.

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MiniNinjaMk5
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Re: Rossi could race for four more years

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

David wrote a really interesting article a while back on the front page, about how this break in racing would affect the riders differently.
Rossi has known nothing but the Motogp calendar since he was a teenager and was racing before that. This is the first time he has had a chance to have a proper break, be with family, enjoy his millions etc!
I remember that David postulated that Rossi in particular might find it harder than others to come back, just because he has been doing it for so long.

I will still give him a few more races before we know for sure, but wonder if this is just that 'one year too many'. For anyone that's a fan of NFL, something very similar happened with Brett Favre, and really with Peyton Manning (although he had the benefit of an extraordinary team helping him on the field - obviously not in the equation with bikes!)
Vmax666 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:13 pm
I don’t think Rossi has the fire anymore
Watching him move out of the way of Marc and looking over at him blasting by was painful to watch
I think Rossi was already going out of the race at that point.

I can't see him giving any quarter to Marc otherwise!

p4p1
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Re: Rossi could race for four more years

Post by p4p1 »

kenup283 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 7:27 am
p4p1 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:41 pm
[...big snip...]
I think control tyres showed how huge of an advantage being the getting tyres that suit you are. The wins really dried up for him after they were introduced.
2016 showed how much of an advantage factory Yamahas and Honda’s had because of the electronics. How much of a factor his age has been since 2016 though I don’t know.
Rossi won the championship first year of control tire's and was runner up three other years including 2016 all on control tires. So he's done fine in that regard.

The only miscalculation he made with regard to control tires, which is also the factor that effected performance since 2016, was using the riders safety council to vote a stiffer front tire into use after the 2017 season had just started a few races in. Since then Yamaha fell off like a light switch.

Rossi was searching for feel, but underestimated how much more the stiffer front would help his competion than it would help him. Lorenzo, Zarco were amoung few abstaining in favor of the softer carcas. Lin Jarvis was less than happy about it to put it lightly, citing that it as against the rules to allow riders saftey council to make such choices and should not be allowed.

So the wins only dried up after he instigated this front tire change but other than that one misstep he's navigated spec tires pretty well. Had the series stuck to their rules we might not be having this conversation, but seemed was allowed as a case of "doctor knows best" as the saying goes, and it backfired badly for him and yamaha.
Rossi won a title in 09 on control tyres. I would argue that it’s probably his best title because of the competition he faced and the fact it was on control tyres. But do you really think Rossi didn’t have an advantage over most if not all of the rest of the field after being on the tyre in 08? Going from Stoners comments the Bridgestone tyre started to suit Rossi and his bike more than it did Stoner and the then idiosyncratic Ducati. That may or may not have been influenced by Bridgestone knowing they were going to be the control tyre in 08.

I agree re 2017 Rossi’s only miscalculation IMO was that Márquez and Dovi were able to exploit the harder tyre better than he was. He got his only win on the second tyre and he seems to have preferred the tyre. Without the switch it’s doubtful Rossi was going to win the title anyway. Márquez either would’ve adapted and won or Vinales would have won enough to make up for his inconsistency. It does seem that the tyre change only happened because Rossi wanted it. There is no way rules would have been bent like that for any other rider on the grid. Which is a huge problem that other riders have faced since 2001. The situation isn’t that hugely different to 2008. However I think the tyre change was probably right in the end as IIRC in 2017 there was a lot of unexplainable front end washouts before the swap. I can remember riders at the time who had crashed saying they were online, telemetry was the same etc so I think it’s fair to say there was a problem with a tyre.

But the wins dried up as soon as a control tyre was introduced. Rossi was only 30 or 31, still now Stoner has won more races on control tyres than Rossi has. That’s a clear indicator that control tyres reduced an advantage Rossi had. After 09 Rossi has had like 10 or so wins in in a decade while being on a factory bike.

p4p1
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Re: Rossi could race for four more years

Post by p4p1 »

Tourn46 wrote:
Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:01 am
p4p1 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 1:41 pm
Is it adaption to new equipment? I think it plays a big part.
Is it age? I think it plays a big part.
Is it the strength of the competition? Well, nobody else has proven they can consistently beat Marc... yet. Is this specifically a 'Rossi' problem?
Is it no Jerry Burgess to help sort out his bike? Could well be part of it, don't think either of us are well placed to say.
Is it no electronic, bike or tyre advantages anymore? Shall we go strike off everyone else's achievements because of their machinery? Probably ought to scratch off any champion on an NSR500 too then. I never get why this only ever applies to Rossi.
I think control tyres showed how huge of an advantage being the getting tyres that suit you are. The wins really dried up for him after they were introduced. I mean there's only been 3 other riders to have won a championship on control tyres after all, it's a pretty elite club.
2016 showed how much of an advantage factory Yamahas and Honda’s had because of the electronics. How much of a factor his age has been since 2016 though I don’t know. Definitely helped satellite bikes catch up, however, surely the factory teams still hold the aces.
You know, you really try to complicate things... the guy is 41 years old. Time moves on, the body ages, competition evolves to beat the 'target'... Rossi was that target, now Marc is that target. Personally I can't see past 25 years of GP racing, getting older, bikes changing year on year, motivation to keep going... for me it is all time related and MotoGP riders are mortal too apparently.
Equipment could be one thing. As I said above, control tyres have been terrible for Rossi. On Sunday he made a mistake with his tyres so I don’t put too much stock into what happened.
Age likely plays a part but it’s been being used since he was the same age as Gibernau and Biaggi when he started in the class. I didn’t believe it played a part in his results when he was in his mid 30s but now that he’s in his 40s of course it’s a factor, especially in conditions like last Sunday.
I’m not just talking about Marc who would likely wipe the floor with any rider ever. I’m also talking about Stoner, Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Dovi, Zarco, Vinales etc. Guys who have been consistently picking up more wins than Rossi h2h.
The reason why the bike, tyre and electronics advantages are spoken about where Rossi is concerned is because once he lost them we saw that Stoner and Lorenzo were better than he was. We saw both Stoner and Lorenzo put in similar seasons to Rossi’s strongest seasons on control tyres and without the massive bike advantage. Since then we have seen Marquez show sustained dominance as Rossi did in the early 2000s without the advantages. There’s actual comparable evidence that shows what happened when the playing field was levelled more.
The reason why I mentioned 2016 was because other than Stoner putting a Ducati on the top step only factory Honda’s or Yamahas won dry races for almost a decade. In 2016 things changed a lot. Ducati got stronger and without a doubt the factories still hold the aces but satellite bikes can now win. The switch to Michelin may have played a part in what’s happened since 2016 I’m not sure. But I don’t see why Michelin control tyres would be any different from Bridgestone tyres from an advantage standpoint for the factories. That’s why I believe that the spec electronics reduced a massive advantage that factory riders have had since the late 90s when they started getting incredibly complex. Outside of Marquez consistency seems to have dropped massively for the field. All of the main championship contenders can go from winning one week to only just making the top 10 the next week. It’s happened to Rossi, Lorenzo and Pedrosa who had to have a disaster to not finish in the top 4 prior to 2016.

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MiniNinjaMk5
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Re: Rossi could race for four more years

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

And.. there we go! :D

I must say I really enjoyed watching Rossi from the onboard on Vinales' bike - that race was like a wet race with the lack of grip, and he was just so smooth moving about on the bike and turning it into corners. Just that one mistake, otherwise I think VInales would have really struggled to get past him.

Yes I know there were a couple of break downs but very impressive considering the conditions and how many other riders chucked it into the weeds. I think with that one race it shows he still has a place on the grid, even if it's not on the factory Yamaha.

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