Hubris

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class
Japhrodisiac
Posts: 1542
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:13 pm

Hubris

Post by Japhrodisiac »

I am not a MM hater, nor a Honda hater. At one point I was sponsored by Honda.
However, at my well into middle age years, I must point out that Honda is treading a dangerous path, the eggs all in one basket approach, and that basket named Marc, is not the way to longevity.

In spite of great results, which I would mostly attribute to Marc and his very tight, very talented family-oriented team, Honda is risking a long bright future by taking the approach whereby giving their lead rider a fast but difficult bike as the way to championships and brand glory, is neither a long term or I would argue short term path to greatness.

Above all, Honda is in the championship for engineering knowledge, R&D, a testing ground for future technologies etc. In tandem, there is a marketing benefit from being 'The Best" motorcycle company, as measured by wins and championships.

Focusing development on the bike based on a perceived lack of top-end power (vs Ducati circa 2018) as a means to stop the face-losing Ducati top speed advantage of the last several years, HRC has admittedly focused on one part of the bike and admitted that they rely on riders to make up whatever shortcomings exist in other areas. That variously, Jorge, Cal and others have had difficulty forcing the spoon to bend as it were, vs making a bike that anyone can ride quickly, is about to bite them in the rear IMO.

One thing that you learn with age is that nothing lasts forever, everything that goes up, eventually comes down, every great has his era, and every run eventually comes to an end. We may well go one several years longer with the HRC/MM run, or not, but either way, HRC has become well too comfortable with their eggs in a particular basket, and the chickens IMO are coming home to roost.

We are but one medium to long term injury away from a much different era.

Twinfan
Posts: 171
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:41 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by Twinfan »

The way I see it, as long as they keep Marc happy and they keep winning championships they won't give too hoots if anyone else says they want the bike changing.

No-one else on the grid is in Marc's league, so why care what they say/ask for?

User avatar
speeddog
Posts: 745
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:43 pm
Location: The hotness of SoCal Inland Valley

Re: Hubris

Post by speeddog »

MM is facing an injury/surgery that is not recovering properly.
It may well be a career-limiting or career-ending situation.

Since Marc entered, the highest placed Honda rider not named Marc has been Dani, in 3rd.

gwcrim
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:23 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by gwcrim »

Just to add fuel to this fire...

I read yesterday, a rumor that MM may have to undergo another shoulder surgery. Obviously, I can't verify any of this but the rumor is floating around the internet.

So you know it MUST be true. :lol:

hdot
Posts: 1178
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by hdot »

Twinfan wrote:The way I see it, as long as they keep Marc happy and they keep winning championships they won't give too hoots if anyone else says they want the bike changing.

No-one else on the grid is in Marc's league, so why care what they say/ask for?
The RC213V is like an oxidizer chewing through riders' shoulders like sacrificial anodes. I think Jorge said it is every riders' dream to ride a factory Honda, or at least it was when he signed. Today, I'm not so sure. MotoGP riders are a confident bunch- it's a job and safety requirement. But as a rookie, the notion that one can outride Marquez and usurp his position as Honda's golden boy crosses the line from positive thinking to foolish fantasy. If your last name isn't Marquez, it almost seems like riding a Honda for any extended amount of time is a career killer. So their 1 rider gamble is compounded by a potential recruitment problem.

It also doesn't help that there are so many options on the grid. When Marc signed, if you wanted to win races, let alone championships, you basically had to get on 1 of 4 bikes on the grid. Now I'd say 3 factories are capable of championships, and maybe 10 bikes are capable of race wins- and that's excluding the Hondas. I don't think it's any coincidence whatsoever that the only other rider who has recently needed shoulder surgery was on the similarly physical KTM.

Honda's philosophy on race bikes is wrong. They seem to think the rider exists to serve the bike, when in reality it's the other way around. Their saving grace is their bottomless bank account and their ability to recruit. But I think their ability to recruit is being blunted by their litany of injuries and increasingly bad non-Marc results. If you were a rookie with your choice of MotoGP bikes, would you sign with Honda and Marc as your teammate?

User avatar
Fingernails
Posts: 1588
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:41 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by Fingernails »

How long would it take Honda to recover should MM93 leave? (Either voluntarily or involuntarily?)

While there is definitely an eggs in one basket situation, Honda have the resources to regroup and come back. If eggs all in one basket gives you (say) three fallow years regrouping, that might still be a reasonable strategy if you get championship after championship out of Marquez in the meantime.

herbs
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:36 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by herbs »

One point, the other riders who've had shoulder surgery were because they got punted by other riders, not the bike.

User avatar
CLX
Posts: 3443
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 7:58 pm
Location: Bogotá

Re: Hubris

Post by CLX »

I know this topic is about HRC and Marquez, but it just makes me think of Ducati and how it seems nobody wants to race there. When I asked about it on twitter, journos told me it was because of how Lorenzo had been treated by them. Riders wanted to avoid similar fate.

Frankly I find this confounding.

What sort of mixture of fear and pride is this that makes riders turn down the team which has made Dovi a triple runner up to Marquez? Are they afraid their feelings might get hurt? Ducati might have messed up with Lorenzo, but that was after he had been riding their bikes for over a year and a half. That's an eternity in these days of standard two year contracts.

This might be the most talendted grid I have ever seen, but that also means there will be a lot of guys leaving the sport with a sense of unfulfilled potential after always having made the most comfortable choices.

Pride, hubris, weird how they work.

---

HRC are too good for their own good, but they are THAT good. Doohan, Rossi, Stoner, Marquez. They get the best riders sooner or later and the best riders master their bike.

-----
Everything we consider fiction is reality somewhere else. This is somewhere's fiction.

warthog1
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Hubris

Post by warthog1 »

6 titles out of the last 7 it is working.
He is such a good rider that it is hard to lose him and take an alternative direction.
To let him go to an alternative manufacturer would be a very risky alternative.
Simple fact is he is the best rider in the field at the moment so he gets what he needs.
Swap him with who? Who is going to do what he did in the last 7 seasons?
The answer at the moment is no one.

They are giving him what is needed to win.
As you say they have concentrated on more power.
That has meant less to be made up on brakes and corner entry.
He crashed less last season.

Yes eventually MM will no longer be head and shoulders better.
Honda will need another rider.
As said Honda have resources and engineering ability.
They will be able to produce what is needed again imo.
He is however only 26 (almost 27)
Yes the bike is hard to ride, but for the one who can, it is working well.

Anyway they have given him what he needs to win and he got the record points haul last season.
Hard to see what else they should be doing that is more successful at this point.

warthog1
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Hubris

Post by warthog1 »

CLX wrote:
---

HRC are too good for their own good, but they are THAT good. Doohan, Rossi, Stoner, Marquez. They get the best riders sooner or later and the best riders master their bike.
Spencer and Lawson too.
I remember the season Lawson won.
He got there but it wasn't easy.
https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/ra ... verything/
https://www.mcnews.com.au/1989-nsr500-h ... ke-lawson/
https://amcn.com.au/editorial/eddie-law ... ck-titles/
Honda have built some evil beasts but they give the best riders what they need.

User avatar
Mikesbytes
Posts: 2532
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:04 am

Re: Hubris

Post by Mikesbytes »

The Lesson that seemed to be learnt by Lorenzo’s first year at Ducati is that riders and teams take time to adapt to each other and I get the feeling that Honda had learnt from that lesson and despite Lorenzo’s 2019 season still wanted him for 2020. It could of been that they were interested in developing the bike to also suit Lorenzo but we will never know
My signature isn't particularly interesting

User avatar
Decker
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:21 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by Decker »

This has been the dynamic at HRC since forever. They’ve always favored the engineers over the riders; make the coolest, most trick bells and whistles machine and find a rider to make it work. They were well known for ignoring feedback from Freddie and Irv Kanemoto, frustrating them to the point that Kanemoto and Spencer spent their own money to buy chassis from an outside company. At least they didn’t send Pedrosa to a shrink the way Ducati did with Marco Meladri.

hdot
Posts: 1178
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by hdot »

warthog1 wrote: Honda will need another rider.
As said Honda have resources and engineering ability.
They will be able to produce what is needed again imo.
This is the meat of the issue. With the way Marquez has to ride that bike, they may need a new rider sooner than you think. And it's likely that rider won't be able to ride around the Honda's problems.

Yes, they have resource$. AKA big money to find and retain the best riders on the grid. But I question their engineering ability. They have 4 riders on the grid, and one of them has won 6 out of the last 7 championships. But what about the rest? If their engineering ability is so great, why was their multi WC Marquez beater struggling to finish in the points? Why has Cal's performance declined so precipitously? Why is the Honda so crash and injury prone? All the results say to me is that Marquez is winning in spite of the Honda, not because of it. They give him more power because that's all they can do. They can't make the bike easier to ride or less razor edged, and it's starting to take a toll.

p4p1
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:52 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by p4p1 »

CLX wrote:I know this topic is about HRC and Marquez, but it just makes me think of Ducati and how it seems nobody wants to race there. When I asked about it on twitter, journos told me it was because of how Lorenzo had been treated by them. Riders wanted to avoid similar fate.

Frankly I find this confounding.

What sort of mixture of fear and pride is this that makes riders turn down the team which has made Dovi a triple runner up to Marquez? Are they afraid their feelings might get hurt? Ducati might have messed up with Lorenzo, but that was after he had been riding their bikes for over a year and a half. That's an eternity in these days of standard two year contracts.

This might be the most talendted grid I have ever seen, but that also means there will be a lot of guys leaving the sport with a sense of unfulfilled potential after always having made the most comfortable choices.

Pride, hubris, weird how they work.

---

HRC are too good for their own good, but they are THAT good. Doohan, Rossi, Stoner, Marquez. They get the best riders sooner or later and the best riders master their bike.
Ducati do have a horrible history of rider mismanagement though, so I can understand preferring other options if they’re available.

User avatar
Fingernails
Posts: 1588
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:41 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by Fingernails »

hdot wrote:
This is the meat of the issue. With the way Marquez has to ride that bike, they may need a new rider sooner than you think. And it's likely that rider won't be able to ride around the Honda's problems.

Yes, they have resource$. AKA big money to find and retain the best riders on the grid. But I question their engineering ability. They have 4 riders on the grid, and one of them has won 6 out of the last 7 championships. But what about the rest? If their engineering ability is so great, why was their multi WC Marquez beater struggling to finish in the points? Why has Cal's performance declined so precipitously? Why is the Honda so crash and injury prone? All the results say to me is that Marquez is winning in spite of the Honda, not because of it. They give him more power because that's all they can do. They can't make the bike easier to ride or less razor edged, and it's starting to take a toll.
They have made the bike easier to ride in terms of crashing last year by addressing the power deficit. The bike is still difficult to ride fast, that's clearly true from how others do on it. However, if what Honda needs to do to win is to create a more rideable bike, then I believe they can do it. Marquez doesn't need a rideable bike to win, and Honda are giving him what he needs - and only he needs - to win. If they end up with another lead rider, they'll start giving that lead rider what they need, and if that's ride ability, they'll get it.

hdot
Posts: 1178
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by hdot »

I guess my question is if all Honda cares about is winning, why have 3 other bikes on the grid? Either they want a bike all 4 of their riders can generate decent results on, and are failing at that, or they just care about winning championships, and thus only need 1 rider. I am just not seeing the logic of having 4 riders on the grid but completely disregarding the results and demands of 3 of them. Cal and Taka are great guys and good riders, but what is the point of the LCR squad in 2020? Is there any value in having Alex M. on the other factory Honda besides marketing? It just doesn't make sense to me.

User avatar
Decker
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:21 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by Decker »

hdot wrote:I guess my question is if all Honda cares about is winning, why have 3 other bikes on the grid? Either they want a bike all 4 of their riders can generate decent results on, and are failing at that, or they just care about winning championships, and thus only need 1 rider. I am just not seeing the logic of having 4 riders on the grid but completely disregarding the results and demands of 3 of them. Cal and Taka are great guys and good riders, but what is the point of the LCR squad in 2020? Is there any value in having Alex M. on the other factory Honda besides marketing? It just doesn't make sense to me.
1. Data gathering

2. Parts testing

User avatar
WayneG
Posts: 664
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:01 am
Location: Central Coast NSW Australia

Re: Hubris

Post by WayneG »

3. Constructors Championship

4. Teams Championship
My first love was my motorbike, we went through everything together. Wind, rain, fences..

hdot
Posts: 1178
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by hdot »

WayneG wrote:3. Constructors Championship

4. Teams Championship
Didn't Marc achieve the triple crown with zero team help?

And what good is data and parts testing from people who can't ride like Marc? Nobody else is doing >60 degrees of lean (without crashing), and that seems to be the only way to ride the Honda quickly. I'm still not convinced

gwcrim
Posts: 112
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:23 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by gwcrim »

Having two bikes (or 4) allows them to keep trying other riders. One day MM will not dominate but they may want to keep him around, like Yamaha and Rossi. So multiple bikes are good for testing bike *and* riders.

warthog1
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Hubris

Post by warthog1 »

hdot wrote:
warthog1 wrote: Honda will need another rider.
As said Honda have resources and engineering ability.
They will be able to produce what is needed again imo.
This is the meat of the issue. With the way Marquez has to ride that bike, they may need a new rider sooner than you think. And it's likely that rider won't be able to ride around the Honda's problems.

Yes, they have resource$. AKA big money to find and retain the best riders on the grid. But I question their engineering ability. They have 4 riders on the grid, and one of them has won 6 out of the last 7 championships. But what about the rest? If their engineering ability is so great, why was their multi WC Marquez beater struggling to finish in the points? Why has Cal's performance declined so precipitously? Why is the Honda so crash and injury prone? All the results say to me is that Marquez is winning in spite of the Honda, not because of it. They give him more power because that's all they can do. They can't make the bike easier to ride or less razor edged, and it's starting to take a toll.
What they are doing is working well for MM.
They don't need the rest whilst they have the best.
Harsh but it is the way it is.
With regard to it being easier to ride, MM can ride it.
He runs in deep and hard sliding the front. Is that ever going to be easier?
That is how he rolls on the edge of traction at both ends.
The extra power he has been given has meant less need to do it, so you could argue they have given him what he needed.
It is just the others cant do it.
When MM is no longer there they will have to give the next world beater what he needs.
As they have previously done.

User avatar
Decker
Posts: 58
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2015 10:21 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by Decker »

hdot wrote:
WayneG wrote:3. Constructors Championship

4. Teams Championship
Didn't Marc achieve the triple crown with zero team help?

And what good is data and parts testing from people who can't ride like Marc? Nobody else is doing >60 degrees of lean (without crashing), and that seems to be the only way to ride the Honda quickly. I'm still not convinced
One imagines they have algorithms to give them data that can be fine-tuned for MM. and who knows there maybe a few R&D guys at least considering the idea of making a more rider friendly bike. With Marquez possibly sitting out the first two rounds while the shoulder more completely mends, it may be dawning on the more pragmatic ones that some effort in that direction is needed because they can’t just pull another Stoner or Marquez out of a hat.

hdot
Posts: 1178
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Hubris

Post by hdot »

warthog1 wrote:
hdot wrote:
warthog1 wrote: Honda will need another rider.
As said Honda have resources and engineering ability.
They will be able to produce what is needed again imo.
This is the meat of the issue. With the way Marquez has to ride that bike, they may need a new rider sooner than you think. And it's likely that rider won't be able to ride around the Honda's problems.

Yes, they have resource$. AKA big money to find and retain the best riders on the grid. But I question their engineering ability. They have 4 riders on the grid, and one of them has won 6 out of the last 7 championships. But what about the rest? If their engineering ability is so great, why was their multi WC Marquez beater struggling to finish in the points? Why has Cal's performance declined so precipitously? Why is the Honda so crash and injury prone? All the results say to me is that Marquez is winning in spite of the Honda, not because of it. They give him more power because that's all they can do. They can't make the bike easier to ride or less razor edged, and it's starting to take a toll.
What they are doing is working well for MM.
They don't need the rest whilst they have the best.
Harsh but it is the way it is.
With regard to it being easier to ride, MM can ride it.
He runs in deep and hard sliding the front. Is that ever going to be easier?
That is how he rolls on the edge of traction at both ends.
The extra power he has been given has meant less need to do it, so you could argue they have given him what he needed.
It is just the others cant do it.
When MM is no longer there they will have to give the next world beater what he needs.
As they have previously done.
"They don't need the rest whilst they have the best."

Then why waste everyone else's time? Repsol Honda doesn't need any other riders.
Decker wrote: they can’t just pull another Stoner or Marquez out of a hat.
I think that is what they are banking on. However, the rider's market isn't like it used to be. There are a ton of options and teams with the budgets and capabilities to develop bikes around riders. Why go to Honda to be a crash test dummy to make Marquez win when you could go to a factory that actually makes you a priority?

warthog1
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:15 am

Re: Hubris

Post by warthog1 »

hdot wrote: "They don't need the rest whilst they have the best."

Then why waste everyone else's time? Repsol Honda doesn't need any other riders.
The simple point is who else can do what MM can on the bike?
He is getting the results because of his ability.
It is therefore his needs that are addressed.
I don't see any other rider making a case for directional development.

How easy it is to get a V4 turning and handling is not clear.
It doesn't seem like the other V4s are that sublime on corner entry either?
I know not how hard they are trying to address Cal's requests but it does seem all riders are mentioning the front end.
At the end of the day 6 from 7 times MM has got the job done.
When he can't they will have to change then.

User avatar
Mikesbytes
Posts: 2532
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:04 am

Re: Hubris

Post by Mikesbytes »

One point about the Honda development. The 2019 model was more powerful and that meant that Marquez had to take less risks in braking and cornering. The end result was that he crashed less in 2019 than he did in 2018
My signature isn't particularly interesting

Post Reply