Hubris

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class
Vmax666
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Re: Hubris

Post by Vmax666 »

I struggle to see how a rider friendly bike can win
The Yamaha has always been described as rider friendly yet have not won a championship since Lorenzo
Maverick and Rossi have both had issues with handling yet Fabio jumps on and shows it can be fast
Stoner won on both the Ducati and Honda both of which were never described as rider friendly
So I take it that if a rider is good enough they can ride anything

Twinfan
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Re: Hubris

Post by Twinfan »

Agreed, as long as it's a bike suited to being ridden close to their style. I think the Honda was just a step too far for Jorge, for example, even though he started to master the Ducati.

The reason no other Honda is doing well is because the riders aren't good enough and/or matched well enough to it IMHO. It shows you how good a rider Dani was and wasn't given enough credit for.

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Fingernails
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Re: Hubris

Post by Fingernails »

Vmax666 wrote:I struggle to see how a rider friendly bike can win
The Yamaha has always been described as rider friendly yet have not won a championship since Lorenzo
Maverick and Rossi have both had issues with handling yet Fabio jumps on and shows it can be fast
Stoner won on both the Ducati and Honda both of which were never described as rider friendly
So I take it that if a rider is good enough they can ride anything
I'm sure that if MM93 was on the Yamaha last year that he'd have won the championship. Hence, I believe that the Yamaha can win, it just needs the right rider.

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Decker
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Re: Hubris

Post by Decker »

Vmax666 wrote:I struggle to see how a rider friendly bike can win
The Yamaha has always been described as rider friendly yet have not won a championship since Lorenzo
Maverick and Rossi have both had issues with handling yet Fabio jumps on and shows it can be fast
Stoner won on both the Ducati and Honda both of which were never described as rider friendly
So I take it that if a rider is good enough they can ride anything
It’s been reported repeatedly that the only serious failing of the M1 has been its power deficit. Of course making usable power has been the goal of all factories - Ducati seeming to be the one managing to come closest to a happy medium. If they figure out how to make it turn as well as the Suzuki they’ll have a pretty unbeatable package. There are substantial reports (not yet verified) that Ducati have figured out how to make their hole-shot device capable of lowering the bike mid-race without the use of electronics, which would otherwise disqualify the bike.

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speeddog
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Re: Hubris

Post by speeddog »

If Ducati figure out how to make their bike turn like a Suzuki as well, they'll lock out the podium every race.

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CLX
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Re: Hubris

Post by CLX »

Vmax666 wrote:I struggle to see how a rider friendly bike can win
The Yamaha has always been described as rider friendly yet have not won a championship since Lorenzo
Maverick and Rossi have both had issues with handling yet Fabio jumps on and shows it can be fast
Stoner won on both the Ducati and Honda both of which were never described as rider friendly
So I take it that if a rider is good enough they can ride anything
Look at it like this, if Stoner and Marquez weren't absolute aliens, the friendlier bike in the title battle would have won every single title since MotoGP went to 800cc. Yamaha just need to do more to recruit these guys, instead of blacklisting them.

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Fingernails
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Re: Hubris

Post by Fingernails »

Is Marquez the only alien in the field now? Rossi is still good, and very good for his age. But, I don't think he stands out against the other riders any more. FQ is very fast, but maybe not an alien yet.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: Hubris

Post by Mikesbytes »

Fingernails wrote:Is Marquez the only alien in the field now? Rossi is still good, and very good for his age. But, I don't think he stands out against the other riders any more. FQ is very fast, but maybe not an alien yet.
I agree and that's why teams are looking at new riders as they know their current riders can't compete with Marquez

If we go back to the 500's days when they gave weight advantages to bikes with less than 4 cylinders, on paper the lighter bikes were quick by themselves but once they were together with the more powerful heavy bikes they got blasted past on the straights and then held up in the corners. To a lessor extent we are seeing this today
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gwcrim
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Re: Hubris

Post by gwcrim »

Mikesbytes wrote:
Fingernails wrote:Is Marquez the only alien in the field now? Rossi is still good, and very good for his age. But, I don't think he stands out against the other riders any more. FQ is very fast, but maybe not an alien yet.
I agree and that's why teams are looking at new riders as they know their current riders can't compete with Marquez
MM is the only alien out there. Ya, he may lose a race now and then but rarely. No one can stay with him consistently. So I agree that new blood is the only way to beat him other than injuries taking him out. It will be exciting racing when someone comes along to really compete with him.

hdot
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Re: Hubris

Post by hdot »

Vmax666 wrote:I struggle to see how a rider friendly bike can win
The Yamaha has always been described as rider friendly yet have not won a championship since Lorenzo
Maverick and Rossi have both had issues with handling yet Fabio jumps on and shows it can be fast
Stoner won on both the Ducati and Honda both of which were never described as rider friendly
So I take it that if a rider is good enough they can ride anything
You're confusing unrelated things

If unfriendly bikes could win all the Honda riders would be winning. Marquez is winning, not the bike

Elton
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Re: Hubris

Post by Elton »

I don't see what choice Honda has. Marquez is the goose laying championship eggs, and HRC have to do whatever it takes to keep him. Everyone knows he could win at another manufacturer. And by giving him more power they've just come off the biggest rider points haul in the history of the championship. It's a winning strategy.

atropos
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Re: Hubris

Post by atropos »

Elton wrote:I don't see what choice Honda has. Marquez is the goose laying championship eggs, and HRC have to do whatever it takes to keep him. Everyone knows he could win at another manufacturer. And by giving him more power they've just come off the biggest rider points haul in the history of the championship. It's a winning strategy.
It WAS a winning strategy. Whether it continues to be, will depend very much on MM93’s post-surgical recovery - assuming he doesn’t need further surgery as rumour is suggesting.

hdot
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Re: Hubris

Post by hdot »

Yea, this is the kind of thing that works until it doesn't. I'm more bullish on Yamaha's collaboration + hedging + riding ease. The shoulder is delicate and doesn't take to chronic abuse too well.

warthog1
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Re: Hubris

Post by warthog1 »

Elton wrote:I don't see what choice Honda has. Marquez is the goose laying championship eggs, and HRC have to do whatever it takes to keep him. Everyone knows he could win at another manufacturer. And by giving him more power they've just come off the biggest rider points haul in the history of the championship. It's a winning strategy.
Sums it up fairly well imo.

He is saying he would like the front end/turning better. As is Cal.
We will see how they go shortly.

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/ ... s/4683486/

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Mikesbytes
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Re: Hubris

Post by Mikesbytes »

Another area where Honda hasn't developed is starting as Marquez is so good at it. I've seen no evidence that they are working on hole shot

https://www.visordown.com/news/racing/m ... ot’-device
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kenup283
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Re: Hubris

Post by kenup283 »

I've never had Marquez as a good starter. Quite the opposite, I've seen his less than stellar starts over the years as the one thing to add to the excitement of his eventual win. I'll accept though that I may need to look at this with a fresh set of eyes.

The rest of the conversation on Marq winning not the bike, needs to at least come in context that Honda have riders making up the rest of their ranks that with all due respect other teams would not have on their top tier. If want to look at easy to ride vs hard to ride then Crutchlow give good example as hes ridden for the top satellite teams for both Yam and Honda and his record on the Honda has been better, even at a time of more competitive field.

Alex Marquez is going to be interesting to watch.. We can rightfully argue that his promotion straight into the factory team has been helped along but one could say he at least got to a position of being someone who other teams may have taken a good solid look at for their own.

motor
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Re: Hubris

Post by motor »

I agree with Kenup283. I think the legend of the Honda's un-friendliness was due to a mix of Lorenzo's troubles as well as sharp criticism from Crutchlow. Of course, why would Marquez go against all that and say, No I disagree, the bike is easy to ride. He's raking in the wins, and supporting the 'nasty honda' theory only makes him look good.

Till 2019, 2-3 riders have won on the Honda every year I believe. That's something no other factory can claim. Hell, it wasn't that far back (2014) when Honda was utterly dominant engineering-wise, what with that trick gearbox and stuff. I believe Honda upped their game in 2011 - I remember Pedrosa checking out from Lorenzo at Estoril with a few laps to go, which I believe was the first time in many many years that Honda displayed a surge of late-race pace, as well as strong gains in corner entry.

From the Michelin perspective it's going to be interesting; the last time they tripped up Honda was in 2004, with their 'big foot' tires that offered an increased contact patch - which ended up giving a good boost to Yamaha, while leaving all the Honda riders to suffer with chatter and what not.
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Decker
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Re: Hubris

Post by Decker »


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Fingernails
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Re: Hubris

Post by Fingernails »

And there we have the answer. The bike they have is, for the rider they have, a good one in terms of winning the championship.

bikermike
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Re: Hubris

Post by bikermike »

Shades of Mick Doohan and the screamer?
If everyone else thinks you are on the limit of a bike unrideable by anyone else that's a few extra microns of space you get given.

Japhrodisiac
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Re: Hubris

Post by Japhrodisiac »

And...yup.

MM out for a round or 2 at least.

Cal having surgery as well.

Eventually, what goes up tends to come down, and I mean that more in the sense of the swings of balance that life tends to deal out from time to time

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MiniNinjaMk5
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Re: Hubris

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

The phrase "that's bike racing" comes to mind, as it has done again and again in the past.

Also a reminder of why you should never gamble large sums of money on bike racing, no matter how certain you are of the result!

Elton
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Re: Hubris

Post by Elton »

Marquez came back past Rossi at almost the same speed Rossi went past in the gravel. Would have loved to hear Rossi's thoughts when Marc came back past him like he had an extra 500cc

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