DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class
hdot
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by hdot »

From what I understand riders deem most of the tracks to be pretty safe, and like us they LOVE old tracks like Mugello, PI etc.Tracks get modified all the time without being completely destroyed (see Catalunya for example), generally at the riders' behest. Cutting down the hill at Mugello would be such an example.

Plus looking back, the 800cc bikes weren't even that slow. Mugello traps today are in the 350s? 800s were trapping in the 340s. Maybe the 750s would trap in the high 330s. Still not quite a speed I think most riders would like to catch air.

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Tourn46
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by Tourn46 »

hdot wrote: Plus looking back, the 800cc bikes weren't even that slow. Mugello traps today are in the 350s? 800s were trapping in the 340s. Maybe the 750s would trap in the high 330s. Still not quite a speed I think most riders would like to catch air.
Mugello Speed Traps (Top Speed at the event for each of the 'big 3')

2011 (Last year of the 800's)
- Ducati 335.7
- Honda 331.5
- Yamaha 327.8

2012 (First year of the 1000's)
- Ducati 346.9
- Honda 342.5
- Yamaha 344.8

2019
- Ducati 356.7
- Honda 354.7
- Yamaha 348.0

I would say over 20kph is very significant.

AL-2
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by AL-2 »

Now for something completely different. Something for everybody to hate.

Instead of changing the tracks or reducing engine capacity. I would propose something completely different.

Reduce tire grip by some significant amount. For discussion say about 10% or 15%. This would reduce corner speed and acceleration which would mean lower top speed. Top speed would also be reduced because they would have to start braking earlier due to reduced grip during braking and slower corner speed.

Of course no tire manufacturer would want to publicly supply such awful tires, so Dorna would probably have to contract a manufacturer to produce some no-name tires to spec.

The actual racing would remain about the same, just slower. The bikes would probably evolve over time to have a little less, but more manageable power.

The downside would be even more emphasis on electronic controls. But we are half way to countering that with the spec ECUs. The next step could be to limit the number ECU maps and freeze them at the start of the season. No optimizing the ECU each race. Each map would have to be more of a general purpose compromise, just like a road bike. The manufacturers might not totally resist this change, because it would have much more relevance to their road bikes. The manufacturers could choose how they want to program each map, but they would have to live with it the whole season, just like they do with engines.

As an example the limit could be 5 main maps. With 2 special purpose maps.

One choice of maps could be:
1. Full bonkers qualifying.
2. Dry race – Fast.
3. Dry race – Tire preservation.
4. Intermediate conditions.
5. Full wet.
6. Pit Lane – Special Purpose.
7. Race start – Special Purpose.

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speeddog
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by speeddog »

AL-2 wrote:Now for something completely different. Something for everybody to hate.

Instead of changing the tracks or reducing engine capacity. I would propose something completely different.

Reduce tire grip by some significant amount. For discussion say about 10% or 15%. This would reduce corner speed and acceleration which would mean lower top speed. Top speed would also be reduced because they would have to start braking earlier due to reduced grip during braking and slower corner speed.

Of course no tire manufacturer would want to publicly supply such awful tires, so Dorna would probably have to contract a manufacturer to produce some no-name tires to spec.

The actual racing would remain about the same, just slower. The bikes would probably evolve over time to have a little less, but more manageable power.

The downside would be even more emphasis on electronic controls. But we are half way to countering that with the spec ECUs. The next step could be to limit the number ECU maps and freeze them at the start of the season. No optimizing the ECU each race. Each map would have to be more of a general purpose compromise, just like a road bike. The manufacturers might not totally resist this change, because it would have much more relevance to their road bikes. The manufacturers could choose how they want to program each map, but they would have to live with it the whole season, just like they do with engines.

As an example the limit could be 5 main maps. With 2 special purpose maps.

One choice of maps could be:
1. Full bonkers qualifying.
2. Dry race – Fast.
3. Dry race – Tire preservation.
4. Intermediate conditions.
5. Full wet.
6. Pit Lane – Special Purpose.
7. Race start – Special Purpose.
You've got some interesting concepts there, no hate from me.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by Mikesbytes »

I thought about the tyres too and had the same conclusion that the tyre provider wouldn't want to go there. Not good for marketing if MotoGP bikes are slower than they were on the previous tyre provider

In relation to less grippy tyres, would we have more of racing to preserve the tyres than we already have?
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warthog1
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by warthog1 »

Can't see the tyre solution taking place either.
Who is going to cough up that expense for no benefit?

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Fingernails
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by Fingernails »

The concepts are interesting, but the problem is that it's easy to change the formula, but it's very difficult to know ahead of time what the consequences of the changes will be. It only takes one team to find a loophole in the new regulations and suddenly all the other teams have to adopt that as well, and then we're somewhere nobody predicted. Particularly if exploiting that loophole is very expensive.

hdot
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by hdot »

Other problem with crippling the tires is you could definitely get into a situation where WSBK bikes are faster than front runner MotoGP bikes on the same tracks

And you still have the huge cost issue of having to redevelop all the bikes. I'd wager redevelopment prompts would make some factories pull out of the series altogether.

They could just cut down the hump at the end of the Mugello straight...............................

AL-2
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by AL-2 »

As far as WSBK being faster, Dorna runs that series also. They could implement the same electronic and tire rules.

Manufacturers leaving the series? How many left due to the change from Bridgestone to Michlein?

Tire wear? I don't see any reason the tires would be worse than they are now. Of course, a rider could choose to burn through their tires in just a few laps, just like now.

No benefit? The bikes are getting faster. At some point, they will either be slowed down or we will have to stop racing at some of the current tracks.

I am NOT saying that the solutions that I mentioned are the best or practical. But sometimes when trying to solve complex problems every "crazy idea" needs to be mentioned, because someone else might see that a part of, or some variation is actually "good".

Actually, I liked the electronics idea better than the tire idea. But I don't think it will slow down the bikes enough.

kenup283
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by kenup283 »

Again looks like I’ve missed all the fuss. A little disappointed with some of the banter, and outright ridicule.

That said I would leave the hill alone. It is not the issue for me, corners and run off are always worth looking at where questionable, which there are some here.

As for crazy ideas, here’s mine. Make a maximum weight for the bikes, and set the max weight lower than the minimum is now and reduce energy of the bikes at speed.

Bikes are about power to weight ratio. We’ve lots that in recent years and they’ve become too heavy and powerful which is pushing limits.

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Morpheus
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by Morpheus »

Ask the current riders. I doubt you would find any consensus that the track needs changing or the bikes need slowing down. The heart in mouth moment they have at the end of the straight is the reason they ride. If it wasnt dangerous no one would be interested riding or watching. All you need is enough run off and Mugello has that. Nothing to see here - move along.
What are you waiting for, you're faster than this
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Apical
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by Apical »

Thanks Morpheus. Good to hear the voice of reason
I agree, let the riders decide.
"Faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death," Hunter S Thompson

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Fingernails
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by Fingernails »

Morpheus wrote:Ask the current riders. I doubt you would find any consensus that the track needs changing or the bikes need slowing down. The heart in mouth moment they have at the end of the straight is the reason they ride. If it wasnt dangerous no one would be interested riding or watching. All you need is enough run off and Mugello has that. Nothing to see here - move along.
I'm not sure that the riders agree with you. E.g.: https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... ogp-riders http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/143764 https://www.gpone.com/en/blog/paolo-sca ... afety.html

Apical
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by Apical »

Thanks Fingernails.
Interesting articles.
None of the riders quoted state that Mugello must be changed.

Dovizioso " I think still is OK, but we are really on the limit."

Marc Marquez is the most definite " we already spoke about it in the safety commission... The only critical point is the end of the straight... We were speaking about to make a little bit different the uphill... In the future we need to do something there to make that area flatter. "

Valentino said " the braking for the first corner, if you arrive at 350 it starts to be dangerous for the jump"
V.R 46 said "Maybe we have to modify it a little bit. But it's not very easy" V.R " maybe we can try to cut the jump a bit...it's starting to be dangerous "

They are the ones riding there. I believe we should listen to them. I accept that the " hump" will need to be modified. That's all, no one has asked for more run off or any other changes. Reprofiling the crest will be a lot easier than moving mountains.

Thanks for the intelligent discussion all.
"Faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death," Hunter S Thompson

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Fingernails
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by Fingernails »

I think that Marquez and Rossi's comments suggest that they think it should be changed. Dovi's comment is less clear; if he says that they're on the limits of safety now, that could mean that he expects the bikes to get quicker and then they'd be beyond the limits, or that the bikes should be reined in.

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speeddog
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by speeddog »

So, amongst those who say leave it be, have y'all seen Pirro's crash from last year?

Normal service, A-OK, it's moto racing we like it that way?

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Mikesbytes
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by Mikesbytes »

My signature isn't particularly interesting

Dave
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by Dave »

That was proper frightening to witness. So glad, he was relatively ok, it certainly didn't seem so at the time.

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JanBros
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by JanBros »

it's been a month, and decided to have a check on what has become of it all. it s UN-F*ING-BELIEVABLE !
hdot wrote:You seem do deem your need for entertainment to be more important than the rider's safety, which is crazy.
hdot wrote:And JanBros has made it pretty clear that track beauty is much more important to him than rider safety.
if you post such stuff, you have understood LITERALY NOTHING of anything I have written, and you should be banned from writing on a forum that has "inteligent debate" in it's banner.

All I am saying is : make the bikes so slow, that all the great tracks are safe. PLEASE tell me where it is exactly that I say rider's safety is not important to me ????? Read again the last sentence in the openingpost ! How retarded do you have to be to make such statements about me ????


To everyone who does not want to change a thing about the current bikes : all you are basicly saying is : I like the racing as it is so leave everything alone. "Don't touch my entertainment" :? The simple fact that with or without the hump at Mugello the bikes are still almost hitting 360km/h means that riders can still crash at 360km/h, but that appears to be of no concern to you all - even if the chance is very small, the possibility is always there ! Just maybe you guys are not concerned with riders safety ...

but no, it is me .....

anyway, back to you guys. I won't be checking in again.
Bi-stroker Parallelus Bi-cylindricus

hdot
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by hdot »

Losing gracefully just isn't your strong suit huh

Safety wise catching air at 330km/h is much worse than hitting 360km/h on flat ground

And a month later the safety concerns of the riders risking life and limb still carry infinitely more weight than the whimsies of a guy on the internet

I'm just going to leave this thread alone as I've wasted enough time on it. Good luck

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Tourn46
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by Tourn46 »

hdot wrote:Losing gracefully just isn't your strong suit huh

Safety wise catching air at 330km/h is much worse than hitting 360km/h on flat ground

And a month later the safety concerns of the riders risking life and limb still carry infinitely more weight than the whimsies of a guy on the internet

I'm just going to leave this thread alone as I've wasted enough time on it. Good luck
You're definitely misunderstanding Jan... It's quite clear that he wants riders to be safe, in order to continue racing at the great and historic tracks on the calendar.

I'm not really sure why anyone would be against this.

Unfortunately, I don't have the magic formula to make this a reality.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by Mikesbytes »

We all have different views and opinions, if we didn't then there would be no point to having a forum. Having a hissy fit because someone has a different view doesn't achieve anything
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warthog1
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Re: DON'T TOUCH MUGELLO !

Post by warthog1 »

JanBros wrote:it's been a month, and decided to have a check on what has become of it all. it s UN-F*ING-BELIEVABLE !
hdot wrote:You seem do deem your need for entertainment to be more important than the rider's safety, which is crazy.
hdot wrote:And JanBros has made it pretty clear that track beauty is much more important to him than rider safety.
if you post such stuff, you have understood LITERALY NOTHING of anything I have written, and you should be banned from writing on a forum that has "inteligent debate" in it's banner.

All I am saying is : make the bikes so slow, that all the great tracks are safe. PLEASE tell me where it is exactly that I say rider's safety is not important to me ????? Read again the last sentence in the openingpost ! How retarded do you have to be to make such statements about me ????


To everyone who does not want to change a thing about the current bikes : all you are basicly saying is : I like the racing as it is so leave everything alone. "Don't touch my entertainment" :? The simple fact that with or without the hump at Mugello the bikes are still almost hitting 360km/h means that riders can still crash at 360km/h, but that appears to be of no concern to you all - even if the chance is very small, the possibility is always there ! Just maybe you guys are not concerned with riders safety ...

but no, it is me .....

anyway, back to you guys. I won't be checking in again.
Grow up and get over it mate.
The world isn't going to end if you stop posting and neither is the forum. The only one you are hurting is yourself. We are all happy to read your comment.
Here is a post you wrote about me prior to blocking me.
JanBros wrote:
my answers :
1. Stop
2. feeding
3. the
4. ...
5. He'll keep on saying the same shite over and over. He hates Rossi and is still furious that Jorge left Yamaha because of him, and even more enraged that Yamaha didn't even give a factory bike to Zarco, again because of Rossi. he'll keep on blabbering about it until everyone has left the forum.

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