KTM better or worse

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class
hdot
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by hdot »

Mikesbytes wrote:Assuming this is the MotoGP frame, the engine appears to be a stressed member and if that's so, it would make it difficult to get the right flex

Image
KTM's rear engine mount looks the same as everyone elses.

The big difference that jumps out at me is the pencil thin section between the front and rear sections of the frame. But with the engine being a structural member between those mounts it makes sense.

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speeddog
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by speeddog »

Image250

Allegedly from Valencia 2017

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Mikesbytes
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by Mikesbytes »

Hdot, that's what I'm seeing too. Without the engine the frame would bend vertically or even twist at the rear. Having said that its not as heavily stressed as others have done in the past

Speedog, there appears to be the words powered by Honda on the swing arm on that photo
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warthog1
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by warthog1 »

speeddog wrote:Image250

Allegedly from Valencia 2017
Honda on the engine case. Inline 4.
Moto 2 bike

hdot
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by hdot »

Looking again at that photo, the engine is connected down at the bottom and the whole top of the frame is free to flex. That connection at the back is for the subframe I think

So like most bikes on the grid plenty of flex

warthog1
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by warthog1 »

Yes, long spans from engine mounts to steerer/headtube.
Plenty of scope for flex imo.

Vmax666
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by Vmax666 »

Can’t help thinking the joint with six welds looks like a area which could have weaknesses due to welding
Also is the carbon above the exhaust a part to aid stiffness that cab be interchanged
And not sure about the hole in the plate just above the gearbox. If that to allow inserts for changing flex

Vmax666
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by Vmax666 »

Also listening to the boss of speedup giving his reasons for why he no longer used wp suspension was interesting
He said that the suspension was good but all the information was given to ktm for them to improve their frame
And that is why he thinks this year they are struggling because they have no information from kalex users to speedup
And stated it was definitely a frame issue

Elton
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by Elton »

Pol deserves a medal for the way he's wringing the shit out of that KTM. If you get a chance to watch Pol for a couple of laps in practice just take a second to appreciate how hard he's riding. He's two wheel drifting to the apex regularly, using every last inch of the track. Watching him brake into turn 1 and through turns 2-3 at Catalunya was awe inspiring. I think he's more on the limit more of the time than anyone out there, including Marquez, and yet his consistency is admirable. His talent is being wasted on that orange turd, I'd love to see what he could do as Marquez's teammate.

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Morpheus
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by Morpheus »

Elton wrote:Pol deserves a medal for the way he's wringing the shit out of that KTM. If you get a chance to watch Pol for a couple of laps in practice just take a second to appreciate how hard he's riding. He's two wheel drifting to the apex regularly, using every last inch of the track. Watching him brake into turn 1 and through turns 2-3 at Catalunya was awe inspiring. I think he's more on the limit more of the time than anyone out there, including Marquez, and yet his consistency is admirable. His talent is being wasted on that orange turd, I'd love to see what he could do as Marquez's teammate.
Totally agree with this. Pol is an animal on that KTM.
What are you waiting for, you're faster than this
Don't think you are, know you are

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Mikesbytes
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by Mikesbytes »

From the Moto2 thread
Fingernails wrote:
Mikesbytes wrote:Suppose it depends whether the issue is a fine tuning of the existing frame or there's a fundamental problem with the design meaning that a new approach is needed and of course it depends on their ability to understand the problem and to understand what to do.
KTM said that a frame update wouldn't solve the problem and they need a complete redesign.
I'm wondering if there's any relationship between the problems with the Moto2 frame and the MotoGP frame
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Vmax666
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by Vmax666 »

Looking how well binder looked today maybe there is some light
Even Martin had a good ride until he fell
But maybe it was just anomalies of Assen and normal service will be resumed
Even though the results from MotoGP looked ok ( points scoring) the time from first was 27 secs so not much if any improvement and it must be demoralising to be a rider at ktm this year

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Fingernails
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by Fingernails »

Vmax666 wrote:Looking how well binder looked today maybe there is some light
Even Martin had a good ride until he fell
But maybe it was just anomalies of Assen and normal service will be resumed
Even though the results from MotoGP looked ok ( points scoring) the time from first was 27 secs so not much if any improvement and it must be demoralising to be a rider at ktm this year
The MV Augusta bikes also did better than usual. E.g. in comparison to the Speed Up bike.

I'd really like to see more of a competition between different chassis manufacturers in Moto2.

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speeddog
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by speeddog »

https://ontrackoffroad.com/2019/07/02/cramped-up/

I hadn't really noticed it before, but I'm seeing the HRC philosphy becoming stronger at KTM, and it's disturbing.
Paraphrasing: "Pol (Marc) is doing fine on the bike, but Johann, Miguel, and Hafisz (Jorge, Cal, Takaaki) just need to try harder and adapt."
"We're hiring this great rider who's got a style that's totally different to our #1 rider now, but IT'LL BE GREAT!"

Ripping a page out of Alberto's shyte playbook.

Vmax666
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by Vmax666 »

After reading a comment about a aggressive engine causing some issues. I find it hard to believe that with fly by wire it can’t be tamed with the electronics
Back in Carl fogartys days in wsbk when he returned to ducati he had the same issue that was cured with a different ratio in the throttle
And flyby wire throttles in f1 are tuned to allow a really aggressive engine can be utilised. As a large movement in the throttle will only turn the throttle butterflies a small distance in comparison so are not linear
Although it sounds from interviews that they are concentrating on a whole new chassis for next year. Not good if your career depends on good results this year

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speeddog
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by speeddog »

RBW can only subtract, it can't fill in a dip in the torque curve.

AL-2
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by AL-2 »

From the rider’s point of view, a fly-by-wire system can fill in a dip in the torque curve, at least at part throttle. The ECU is programmed to know through what rpm range the torque dip occurs and opens the throttle more in that rpm range to prevent a dip in the torque delivered to the rear wheel.

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Fingernails
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by Fingernails »

AL-2 wrote:From the rider’s point of view, a fly-by-wire system can fill in a dip in the torque curve, at least at part throttle. The ECU is programmed to know through what rpm range the torque dip occurs and opens the throttle more in that rpm range to prevent a dip in the torque delivered to the rear wheel.
I can see this working on the road. But, in racing, aren't there many situations where full throttle is needed to accellerate as fast as possible? Where traction is a problem, then full throttle may not be useable. But, I would think that full useable throttle would be common at many points around the track. Hence, I'm not sure that the torque dip can always be filled in. For fuel limited races, then perhaps this is possible. But, I thought that fuel limits are not so much of an issue in MotoGP. Or, are they?

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speeddog
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by speeddog »

AL-2 wrote:From the rider’s point of view, a fly-by-wire system can fill in a dip in the torque curve, at least at part throttle. The ECU is programmed to know through what rpm range the torque dip occurs and opens the throttle more in that rpm range to prevent a dip in the torque delivered to the rear wheel.
OK, so what's the explanation for this rather common rider complaint?

AL-2
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by AL-2 »

Fingernails: Actually, a lot of very important time is spent at part throttle. Think leaned over in a turn and trying to dial in the exact amount of power desired. Smooth, predictable response is critical. The significant dips in the torque curve typically occur at mid-range rpm. At full throttle the engine is typically in the peak power range at high rpm, so the mid-range power fluctuations are not a factor.

Speeddog: I think we are talking about two different situations. My previous comment was in regard to mid-range rpm, modulated part throttle, entering and in the middle of a turn. I think you are referring to end of the turn during the transition from part throttle to full throttle. This has been the problem that plagued Honda in 2015 and the Yamaha and Suzuki in more recent years.

Leaving the turn, standing the bike up, rolling on the throttle and suddenly the power hits hard and the rear tire spins. This is most likely a symptom of extreme engine tuning, resulting in a torque curve that transitions from moderate power at mid-range rpm to high power high rpm too quickly. Over a relatively small rpm range the torque suddenly spikes sharply higher. This a hard-metal characteristic of the engine and can’t be changed without physically changing the engine. The very sophisticated electronics packages of years past could more effectively deal with this characteristic, but they were working against the basic “personality” of the engine. This is where the need for turn-by-turn programing came from. The ECU needed to anticipate what the rider was going to want.

The need for extreme power output tends to lead in to unfriendly engines. The ‘easy’ path tends to spikey torque/power curves. The ‘hard’ path can lead to torque/power curves that are less spikey, but might require intake and exhaust systems that cannot be packaged into a racing motorcycle. Maybe, this packaging problem is why the Yamaha and Suzuki with inline engines are having difficulty matching the power of Ducati and Honda with vee engines.

Sorry for the long response. I edited it shorter a couple of times to keep a readable length.

warthog1
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by warthog1 »

^^thanks. [emoji106]

hdot
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by hdot »

AL-2 wrote: Maybe, this packaging problem is why the Yamaha and Suzuki with inline engines are having difficulty matching the power of Ducati and Honda with vee engines.
I think the inline deficit has 2 causes... 1 the I4s have to run a balance shaft while the vees are perfectly balanced, and that robs some power. 2, I think Ducati's desmo valvetrain is possibly more efficient and enables more freedom in camshaft profiles (though Honda has seemed to catch up).

Also important to keep in mind the difference is really small. The trap gap between the V4s and I4s at Mugello was about 3%, which translates to a ~1.5% power deficit. On a 280HP bike, about 5HP throughout the powerband. This is how "nanoscopic" the margins of MotoGP are today. Back in the CRT days there was a 30km/h top speed gap from the top to the bottom.

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speeddog
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by speeddog »

Aero drag power increases as the cube of the speed.

3% speed increase requires 1.03^3 increase on power.
That's 1.093x on power, or as an example, 280HP to 306HP.

AL-2
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by AL-2 »

hdot: The Honda V4 has run with an uneven firing order (long bang) for the last 2 or 3 seasons, so it is no longer naturally balanced. Nobody but HRC knows exactly what they are doing to balance the engine, but I have never heard of any rider complaining of vibration. They might be running a balance shaft also. The shaft might do double duty as the counter-shaft necessary for the reverse rotating engine.

I think, but I am not certain, that Ducati also has started to use a long bang engine.

speeddog: I was going to make the same comment about the drag/power relationship.

Vmax666
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Re: KTM better or worse

Post by Vmax666 »

The ktm does not look down on power against any bar the ducati
The engine should be the easiest to sort out for them as they are allowed upgrades during the year
Maybe they should instead let a few moto2 guys test it to see if there is a young rider capable of adapting to it
Lecuona is doing a great job. He is the only rider capable of putting in good times on the old moto2 frame

If they are going to stick with a trellis they need to find someone who can ride it fast and develop from there

And no I don’t think any of their current riders have adapted enough ( pol has shown being aggressive with it can work so maybe binder will have a good rest this week)

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