MotoE

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class
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Mikesbytes
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Re: MotoE

Post by Mikesbytes »

The schedule is;
1 July 5-7 Sachsenring
2 August 9-11 Red Bull Ring
3, 4 September 13-15 Misano
5, 6 November 15-17 Valencia

I don't recall the schedule prior to the fire, have the doubled up the last 2 rounds to make up for the 2 cancelled rounds?
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Mikesbytes
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Re: MotoE

Post by Mikesbytes »

Wasn't the first race suppose to be in July? Or is this race on part of the official calendar?

https://www.crash.net/motogp/results/92 ... ce-results

A start, don't know if its this race: https://twitter.com/btsportmotogp/statu ... 0700252160
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Mikesbytes
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Re: MotoE

Post by Mikesbytes »

I've answered my own question, it was a test race

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Morpheus
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Re: MotoE

Post by Morpheus »

What are you waiting for, you're faster than this
Don't think you are, know you are

kenup283
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Re: MotoE

Post by kenup283 »

Good article, Morpheus, The rules have just been posted. See link below and to approved parts list.

Rules
http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/down ... o_cache/1/

Parts list
http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/down ... o_cache/1/

Not much really here just lots of restrictions. Esentially can't touch the bike. Quite literally there is a rule that no more than two people can touch the bike at any one time.

No suspension changes, just adjustment of clickers, and oil level. Restricted to all stock internals, and even type of oil. You would change more on your track bike than will be allowed here. This is nothing unexpected, just put down now formally. They do allow spring rate change for riders of diffent weights and you can change seat pads, levers, foot pegs, but that's about it, and you get three rear sprockets to choose from.

Qualifying format is one hot lap per rider. Lots of words around what happens if it rains midway thru the sessions, or if a rider gets held up thru no fault of their own. Race distance not specified. Bikes at 260kg min weight.

Other intresting bits, one bike allowed per team, they limit you to their supplied tire warmers and even any fans pointed at the bike to externally cool it. There are lots of silly ways potentially to get DQ'd it seems but I understand the purpose and don't expect anyone to really be pushing the boundaries for loopholes just yet, at least until they get sorted.

Below a couple excerpts of mandatory badging for the bikes and riders just for grins

Image

Image

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Mikesbytes
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Re: MotoE

Post by Mikesbytes »

Sounds like they are capping the cost of racing this series. The maximum of 2 mechanics at a time touching the bike rule is interesting, I haven't previously heard of a rule that limits the number of staff involved in motorcycle racing
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Fingernails
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Re: MotoE

Post by Fingernails »

I wondered how they would enforce the maximum of two mechanics touching the bike at any one time.

The rules say that the mechanics must be registered ahead of time:
2.13.1 A maximum of two persons per rider are permitted to work on the machine (ie. to physically touch the machine) at any one time during the event, whether in the E-Paddock, Pit Box or Pit Lane. This includes all team personnel able to make adjustments to the machine. Each team is required to register the two specified persons with the Technical Director prior to the event, which is an undertaking to guarantee that they have a maximum of two dedicated technical employees for MotoE at each event.
So, it's more than just having no more than two people touching the bike at any one time. It's two people at any event. The rule looks strangely worded, and I wonder why they didn't just restrict technical people to two, and leave it at that. Perhaps the rule is intended to prevent teams registering two mechanics but having other employees not officially mechanics but in actual fact fulfilling that role. Or something.

Apical
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Re: MotoE

Post by Apical »

Two technicians only to touch the MotoE bike.
Wonder if they are required to be trained to handle the electrical systems safely? Dorna may need to cover themselves in case a technician gets a nasty shock.
Occupational health & safety all that.
"Faster, faster, until the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death," Hunter S Thompson

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Fingernails
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Re: MotoE

Post by Fingernails »

Apical wrote: Wonder if they are required to be trained to handle the electrical systems safely? Dorna may need to cover themselves in case a technician gets a nasty shock.
Occupational health & safety all that.
Yes. That's covered in a part of the regulations that I didn't quote.

kenup283
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Re: MotoE

Post by kenup283 »

couple pics under the covers

Image

Image


source: https://www.motorsport.com/motoe/photos ... 262402&p=2

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Mikesbytes
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Re: MotoE

Post by Mikesbytes »

Now I expected to see a small motor and a big battery but that's even smaller/bigger than I expected. Electric motors seem to have better power to size ratio than petrol motors but the energy density of stored electricity is way behind the energy density of stored chemicals that react with oxygen in the atmosphere
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Fingernails
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Re: MotoE

Post by Fingernails »

For E-bikes, there will have to be approximately an order of magnitude improvement in energy density to make the bikes be able to do MotoGP length races at MotoGP speeds, with the battery being a reasonable size. I do hope that is achieved, but it's likely that it will take quite some time.

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speeddog
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Re: MotoE

Post by speeddog »

Fingernails wrote:For E-bikes, there will have to be approximately an order of magnitude improvement in energy density to make the bikes be able to do MotoGP length races at MotoGP speeds, with the battery being a reasonable size. I do hope that is achieved, but it's likely that it will take quite some time.
Gasoline energy density is 46.7 MJ/kg.

C4 is 6.7 MJ/kg

Current LiPO battery is 0.4 MJ/kg
Taking that up by a factor of 10, so 4 MJ/kg.
Rather close to C4, yes?

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Mikesbytes
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Re: MotoE

Post by Mikesbytes »

speeddog wrote:
Fingernails wrote:For E-bikes, there will have to be approximately an order of magnitude improvement in energy density to make the bikes be able to do MotoGP length races at MotoGP speeds, with the battery being a reasonable size. I do hope that is achieved, but it's likely that it will take quite some time.
Gasoline energy density is 46.7 MJ/kg.

C4 is 6.7 MJ/kg

Current LiPO battery is 0.4 MJ/kg
Taking that up by a factor of 10, so 4 MJ/kg.
Rather close to C4, yes?
Even if we add the oxygen in the air to the weight calculation, gasoline is never going to be matched by electricity [which by the way is really light, its the storage that makes it heavy but that's not going to go away]

What's the weight difference in the motors? I suspect that even though the electric motor is smaller there's only going to be a difference of say 10kg. Anyone know?
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speeddog
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Re: MotoE

Post by speeddog »

Somehow 60 kg rings a bell for the IC MotoGP engine.
Buuut, not sure at all.

Elton
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Re: MotoE

Post by Elton »

. I really enjoyed the sachsenring Moto E race! The bikes might be heavy but they sure don't look slow, with the huge lean angles the top rideas were getting and the smoke pouring off the rear tyres around the long left. And the race itself was close and exciting. Will definitely be watching the next rounds! I'd love if they could secure a few wild cards by some big names too. Say Biaggi or Stoner or Bayliss for instance.

As for the sound, to be honest on TV they sound OK. Not as good as the 4 strokes I guess but it was by no means a deal breaker. I think it will be a different story actually watching from trackside, thats where the lack of audio drama will be most noticeable. But to watch on TV I thought it was fine apart from when they cut to the onboard feed. There the electric squeal was more reminiscent of a dentist drill or something.. actually an unpleasant sound. They should put the mic slightly further from the motor or something

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Fingernails
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Re: MotoE

Post by Fingernails »

When I suggested an order of magnitude increase in energy density to get nearer a MotoGP race, my rough calculation is that an order of magnitude increase in energy density would give 80 laps instead of 8, and then if those are reduced to say 40 laps for a typical MotoGP race length, that would give more energy for higher speeds. My estimate was no more sophisticated than that.

MotoGP bikes have a maximum tank size of 22 litres, and that's about 16kg in weight when fully loaded. That's about 10% of the dry weight of the bike sans rider. Assuming a 60kg rider, that's about 7% of the weight of the bike + rider being fuel.

I wasn't suggesting that it would be possible to get electric power sources down anywhere near the energy density of a tank of gas. Barring some hugely unexpected breakthrough, electric motorcycles will always have more weight and of course a higher proportion of weight given over to energy storage than petrol bikes.

I think it likely that if electric bikes ever take over racing that the speeds will be lower than they are now.

It would be a topic for another thread, but I can't see why liquid fuels from renewable sources can't be used. E.g. in endurance racing.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: MotoE

Post by Mikesbytes »

I didn't get to see it but I noticed that FormulaE was live on New Zealand TV. I don't know how its going popularity wise but it does seem to of made some inroads

In regards with the weight, some pure speculation as I don't have the data.
1. MotoGP motor 60kg (speed dog's guess)
2. MotoGP fuel + tank 18kg
78kg combined

3. MotoE motor 30kg (my even worse than guess)
4. MotoE battery 130kg (guess based on bike overall weight + visual of a solid hunk of metal)
160kg combined
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Mikesbytes
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Re: MotoE

Post by Mikesbytes »

A guy in Australia who races an Electric bike has done a simple comparison with his
Fun fact - Voltron has about 80 more horsepower than these bikes and weighed a bit less, however they are doing longer races with bigger batteries. If we put 12 kWh or more in Voltron is sure wouldn't handle that great.
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speeddog
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Re: MotoE

Post by speeddog »

Not sure if this has been posted, but here you go:

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... -wird.html

MotoE battery ~110 kg

And the usual " then at some point in the near future, improved battery technology will change everything."
I've been hearing that same song for 30+ years.

Looking for a history of battery power density.

Some info here:
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/evolut ... echnology/

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Mikesbytes
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Re: MotoE

Post by Mikesbytes »

Is the entire bike 260kg? If so then subtract the battery and that leaves 150kg. MotoGP bike is 157kg. Subtract say 2kg for the empty fuel tank and there's only 5kg in it despite the difference in engine weight. It's suggesting to me that the MotoE bike itself is a bit on the heavy side, perhaps as much as 20kg but subtract that 20kg and your still got 240kg

I'm not anticipating any huge improvement in getting the weight of the battery down as the electricity is stored as loose electrons around an atom so unless we find an atom that can store more electrons the weight isn't going to change. I know they are looking at sodium but I think that's from an availability viewpoint, there's only so much lithium.

A bit off topic, the other way of storing electricity is as potential energy, which Germany is (or is about to) by pumping water upwards in Norwegian dams

And NZ TV had Jaguar eTrophy racing, which I didn't get to see and I'm back in Australia this arvo
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speeddog
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Re: MotoE

Post by speeddog »

If we take my SWAG 60 kg for a MotoGP engine, add 15 kg for ancillaries; fuel tank, exhaust, intake, cooling system, electronics.

Gets 75 kg, so from 157 kg that leaves 77kg for frame, suspension, wheels, brakes, final drive, bodywork, non-engine electronics.

Let's add 13 kg since the MotoE bike hasn't been iteratively and empirically pared down over decades to the bare minimum weight of individual parts.
Additionally, it is derived from a limited production road bike.

So 90 kg for the rolling chassis.
Add 110 kg for the battery.
So 200 kg.

Leaves 60 kg for the drive system; electric motor with gear reduction, the controller, and whatever cooling system it has.

Perusing the internet....
Heres a 100kW motor and controller:
https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/uqm-dr ... clone.html

Data Sheet:
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/images/ ... 0791147819

Says motor is 50 kg and controller is 28 kg.
But there's no gear reduction nor cooling system.... so SWAG those at 7 kg.
So drive system 85 kg (my above estimate of 60 kg seems a bit optimistic....)
Adding the 110kg battery, gives 195 kg.
Leaves 65 kg for the rolling chassis.

Shrug

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Mikesbytes
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Re: MotoE

Post by Mikesbytes »

There's a reference to the overall weight being 225kg. Speeddog If that's the case that would put your calculations on the money.

For reference here's the road version https://www.energicamotor.com/energica- ... otorcycle/
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speeddog
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Re: MotoE

Post by speeddog »

Mikesbytes wrote:There's a reference to the overall weight being 225kg. Speeddog If that's the case that would put your calculations on the money.

For reference here's the road version https://www.energicamotor.com/energica- ... otorcycle/
Where did you see 225kg?

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Mikesbytes
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Re: MotoE

Post by Mikesbytes »

speeddog wrote:
Mikesbytes wrote:There's a reference to the overall weight being 225kg. Speeddog If that's the case that would put your calculations on the money.

For reference here's the road version https://www.energicamotor.com/energica- ... otorcycle/
Where did you see 225kg?
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