Valentino Rossi

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class
Japhrodisiac
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by Japhrodisiac »

The narrative that Rossi blocked Zarco at Yamaha, I find dubious, because in reality there were no factory seats to be had. Those deals were done early on, and by blocking, does that mean that Rossi simply remained in his seat? The only other method with which Rossi could 'block' Zarco at Yamaha is to demand that he not get any 2018 parts, but that hasn't happened, it looks like Yamaha has provided Johan's side of the garage with plenty of 2018 bits on his satellite bike, engine, aero, choice of chassis etc.

I call BS on this one.

warthog1
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by warthog1 »

Rick650 wrote:Rossi's guide on development direction should be as good as anyone else's and better than most.
He is hugely experienced, has a unparalled record of winning and performing across a range of time, circuits and conditions
He also has a very balanced riding style and doesn't require bikes that are set up in extreme ways.
A bike set up to suit Rossi's tastes should be accessible and useable by others including rookies.

This to me is the mystery of the current Yamaha problems, why can't Rossi and Yamaha come up with solution and start winning races again?
Since his last Championship in 2009 Rossi has won 12 races, Pedrosa has won nearly twice as many in the same time frame, Lorenzo well over three times as many and Marques also well over three times as many without competing in MotoGP in 10, 11 and 12.
Even ignoring the Ducati years, Rossi's recent role in championships has been as a point accumulator rather than a dominant force because the Rossi/Yamaha combination has not been the fastest.

Is it that Rossi and Yamaha are too conservative and the bike has changed too little?
Compare the changes in the Honda in the last couple of years with those on the Yamaha.
Does his developmental direction work for MV?
Is MV able to provide clear feedback on what is required for him?
Neither of those questions look like a clear yes to me.

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JanBros
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by JanBros »

every factory fucks up from time to time. now it's Yamaha's turn. that's all.
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pom
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by pom »

Japhrodisiac wrote: I call BS on this one.
Yep. Even Zarco told recently to an Italian Media that Rossi didn't block him. Yamaha made choices and they didn't choose to replace Rossi or Vinales. That's it.

In all honesty, nobody knows what happened exactly and Maybe we'll know much much after all people involved will retire. :lol:

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Tourn46
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by Tourn46 »

pom wrote:
Japhrodisiac wrote: I call BS on this one.
Yep. Even Zarco told recently to an Italian Media that Rossi didn't block him.
You think maybe this is something which has been lost in translation all along? Fellon saying Rossi blocked him... perhaps meaning that by Rossi signing a new deal it meant there was no room in the factory team? Hence... blocking that path?

You're right though, we'll likely never know for a good few years.

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pom
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by pom »

Tourn46 wrote:
pom wrote:
Japhrodisiac wrote: I call BS on this one.
Yep. Even Zarco told recently to an Italian Media that Rossi didn't block him.
You think maybe this is something which has been lost in translation all along? Fellon saying Rossi blocked him... perhaps meaning that by Rossi signing a new deal it meant there was no room in the factory team? Hence... blocking that path?

You're right though, we'll likely never know for a good few years.
Yea Fellon said so to French TV but Zarco corrected http://www.corsedimoto.com/in-pista/mot ... la-strada/ . EDIT : in english ( Strange english but still :lol: ): https://www.bikeandrace.com/motogp/scoo ... t-cut-off/

Even if they think Rossi blocked him ,it's still stupid to talk about it to media without solid proofs. Fellon should have shut his mouth.

To hide the KTM agreement to Puig and let him expect more megociation was really stupid as well. Fellon is a great coach and knows perfectly a lot of things about bikes but imo it's not the best guy to manage Zarco's public relation :lol: .

By the way, all those yamaha/Rossi/Zarco talk is now useless. Contracts are signes and Ink dried a long time ago.

herbs
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by herbs »

I follow a few of the Italian media outlets, their English language pages anyway. I think a fair bit is lost in translation there. Plus Italian media has a bit of a reputation for leaning towards the dramatic.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by Mikesbytes »

pom wrote:By the way, all those yamaha/Rossi/Zarco talk is now useless. Contracts are signes and Ink dried a long time ago.
Yes that's the way I see it, also for the Rossi/Vinales/Lorenzo or Rossi/Vinales/Zarco discussions. Yamaha saw stability as the way forward and stayed with their existing riders. What we don't know is what happens internally within the team, as mentioned for some riders in other teams was things like their value for testing, there's internal dynamics and the relationship to their team mate and their value in bringing in sponsorship after all it is a business

There's a motorbike shop I go past regularly and they still have a large photo of Valentino Rossi on the Ducati displayed [wow that's a bit dated] and I see plenty of VR46 helmets on the heads of scooter riders and sport bike riders
My signature isn't particularly interesting

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Tourn46
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by Tourn46 »

Mikesbytes wrote:I see plenty of VR46 helmets on the heads of scooter riders and sport bike riders
Second to Rossi, I would say are Guy Martin helmets (I'm in the UK)... see loads of those about. Personality does sell products.

warthog1
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by warthog1 »

I'd say a winning personality sells products.

hdot
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by hdot »

pom wrote:
Japhrodisiac wrote: I call BS on this one.
Yep. Even Zarco told recently to an Italian Media that Rossi didn't block him. Yamaha made choices and they didn't choose to replace Rossi or Vinales. That's it.

In all honesty, nobody knows what happened exactly and Maybe we'll know much much after all people involved will retire. :lol:
Well technically, Rossi kept his seat, which in turned blocked Zarco from taking it, so the rumor is true!
CLX wrote:
Emoo wrote: (...)So many whats, ifs, buts and maybes is why this type of topic is so divisive and pointless.(...)
It's only pointless once it gets personal. Let's behave.
Impossible when the opening post and OP's agenda in this thread is personal and pivoted around unsubstantiated rumors and flat out fallacies. JZ is good but Rossi is demonstrably better, and more valuable to the Yamaha brand. It takes conspiracies and trolling to argue otherwise.

warthog1
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by warthog1 »

No trolling just aking the question.
Is Michael Scott a heretic troll?
How so is it personal?
The tech 3 team is gone.
There is no seat on a yamaha other than the 2 occupied factory seats as a result.
Any option for a Petrux or Crutchlow seat is not there.
Maybe something will eventuate but as it stands Yamaha have limited their options.

hdot
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by hdot »

Rossi is still a net positive for Yamaha. He generates good results, is a brand asset, and is a known quantity. I imagine he is riding for pretty cheap based on the rumored structure of his contract and the results he's been generating. You're trying to argue for Yamaha to take a complete gamble on a new rider over a regular podium finisher and the biggest name in MotoGP history. I would hope you were trolling with such a question for your own sake....

Vmax666
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by Vmax666 »

Although not able to mount a constant challenge to Marquez ( who is?) he’s still one of the few who have won gp’s in last couple of years in the dry so is still good enough to be worthy of his seat
And almost everyone loves to see a older rider running at the front

warthog1
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by warthog1 »

I've made the point numerous times about future direction, developing the bike to suiit the needs of a retiring rider, not having a satellite team and miising out on options as a result.
The counter is the VR academy will produce the goods.
It may be a good option for developing Italian riders. However there already is a very functional academy in moto 2 & 3.
That works and has a bigger pool of riders to draw from.

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Tourn46
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by Tourn46 »

warthog1 wrote:I've made the point numerous times about future direction, developing the bike to suiit the needs of a retiring rider
Didn't realise anyone had announced their retirement.

Yamaha were able to give Jorge and Vale different M1's to suit their needs, at the minimum, they will be doing the same for Vinales.

I think you're far too invested in looking for problems that don't exist.

warthog1
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by warthog1 »

I accept we aren't going to agree.
Others are steadfastly looking away from the problems that do exist.
So far I've just been called stupid and a troll. It is less than I expected.

hdot
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by hdot »

warthog1 wrote:Others are steadfastly looking away from the problems that do exist.
You are the one blaming Rossi's presence for Yamaha's refusal to bring MM into the paddock, which he and Vinales have both acknowledged to be the issue.

Plus factories would be stupid not to develop bikes around the riders they have. Riders leave teams all the time, for reasons that aren't always age/retirement. Best example is Yamaha developing the M1 to suit Lorenzo, only for him to leave anyway. Shutting a current rider out of development plans because of something that might or might not happen in the future is idiotic. Rossi would be second in the championship if your golden boy hadn't run him off the track in Argentina.

warthog1
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by warthog1 »

Yet Zarco rides around the problem.
What about the loss of the satellite team and no spot to bring in further talent.
Of course tech 3 was going to leave with no future bikes.
If he's coming in to run a satellite team he needs to do it now.
Who is going to run a team on such a short term contract otherwise.
If you don't have a satellite team the main team suffers it would appear.
As far as him being 2nd, at the end of the year instead of being 115 points behind he'll only be 100 behind.
Do you seriously see him as a title threat?
Clutching at straws there mate.
But yes MM rode like a d"head and that was the result.

hdot
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by hdot »

Zarco rides around what problem? Since Zarco's entry to the premier class, Rossi has him beat by 32 points. He beat him by 34 points last year. Difference would be even more if your golden boy hadn't rammed him off during his poetic charge in Argentina. Leading races doesn't mean anything if you lose that lead well before the finish line... just ask Lorenzo.

If being a title threat is the requirement to deserve one's seat, then nobody, not even Zarco, should be on the grid right now. All Marquez needs to do is win 8 of the next 14 races to be able to go home early with the chip. And that's IF Vinales finishes first and second for the rest of the year... but he hasn't won a race since last year. In the context of his real title threat- Dovi- Marquez would only need to win FOUR races through the end of the year and finish second in the rest to secure the chip. And that's with the essential DNF in Argentina. It would have been another what, 13 points? without that. So why only hold Rossi to that standard, when everyone's season has been as much if not worse of a disaster so far?

I like Zarco and hope + think he will do well at KTM. But these conspiracies of Rossi sabotaging his rise at Yamaha are ridiculous. On top of that you do everything you accuse others of in this goofy crusade. I'm just going to leave this thread alone because it's obvious you are incapable of being objective about Rossi for whatever reason.

warthog1
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by warthog1 »

hdot wrote:Zarco rides around what problem? Since Zarco's entry to the premier class, Rossi has him beat by 32 points. He beat him by 34 points last year. Difference would be even more if your golden boy hadn't rammed him off during his poetic charge in Argentina. Leading races doesn't mean anything if you lose that lead well before the finish line... just ask Lorenzo.

If being a title threat is the requirement to deserve one's seat, then nobody, not even Zarco, should be on the grid right now. All Marquez needs to do is win 8 of the next 14 races to be able to go home early with the chip. And that's IF Vinales finishes first and second for the rest of the year... but he hasn't won a race since last year. In the context of his real title threat- Dovi- Marquez would only need to win FOUR races through the end of the year and finish second in the rest to secure the chip. And that's with the essential DNF in Argentina. It would have been another what, 13 points? without that. So why only hold Rossi to that standard, when everyone's season has been as much if not worse of a disaster so far?

I like Zarco and hope + think he will do well at KTM. But these conspiracies of Rossi sabotaging his rise at Yamaha are ridiculous. On top of that you do everything you accuse others of in this goofy crusade. I'm just going to leave this thread alone because it's obvious you are incapable of being objective about Rossi for whatever reason.
Yes it has been a circular argument.
I would argue I am being objective regarding the Rossi/Yamaha situation.
No satellite team and no rider who appears capable of developing the bike outside of Rossi who has a very finite tenure.
It has certainly limited their options.
Rossi has been a great rider but he is not the future.

atropos
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by atropos »

I've never really gotten into the technical aspects of MotoGP bikes but I am genuinely curious -
Where does this idea that Rossi can develop a bike come from? Is there objective evidence for it or is it one of those things if repeated often enough is deemed to be true?

And Warthog1 is right, Rossi is not the future. Yamaha appear to have spectacularly failed thus far in any meaningful succession planning.

GD66
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by GD66 »

atropos wrote:.... Warthog1 is right, Rossi is not the future. Yamaha appear to have spectacularly failed thus far in any meaningful succession planning.


And that goes double for Dorna. :(
Nostalgia's not what it used to be...

Redglare
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by Redglare »

atropos wrote:I've never really gotten into the technical aspects of MotoGP bikes but I am genuinely curious -
Where does this idea that Rossi can develop a bike come from? Is there objective evidence for it or is it one of those things if repeated often enough is deemed to be true?

And Warthog1 is right, Rossi is not the future. Yamaha appear to have spectacularly failed thus far in any meaningful succession planning.
They signed Viñales for the future. It isn’t Rossi’s fault that since the start of last season he’s been shit.

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Tourn46
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Re: Valentino Rossi

Post by Tourn46 »

atropos wrote:I've never really gotten into the technical aspects of MotoGP bikes but I am genuinely curious -
Where does this idea that Rossi can develop a bike come from? Is there objective evidence for it or is it one of those things if repeated often enough is deemed to be true?
Rossi doesn't develop bikes. It's about feedback and it's been said numerous times by people in the paddock that Rossi provides very clear and precise feedback. The factory goes back and then develops around that feedback. That's all there is to it.

Is he better or worse than others? No idea... But the narrative has always been that he's good at it.

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