Jorge Lorenzo

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Japhrodisiac
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Jorge Lorenzo

Post by Japhrodisiac »

Whilst almost inconceivable a few months ago, there is a chance that JLo could be ride-less next season, assuming that he doesn't take a second string machine. Ducati and Suzuki both playing coy with the press for sure, but again, if those don't pan out, Honda imo wouldn't take a leap for him over the known quantity Pedrosa or the riders they are looking at then...satellite Yamaha? I have a very hard time imagining that a factory would take a leap on someone like Mir, who for sure shows promise, yet over a multi-time WC and race winner who still shows great speed, but obviously doesn't get along with the current ride he's on?

I don't doubt Jorge's abilities at all, in fact, I am a huge fan of his riding, I have never seen anyone including Marquez do the specific thing he can do. Certainly, he has drawbacks, after his Assen crash he was never the same in the wet and mixed conditions, but on a well-balanced bike, he can win titles. I would be gobsmacked if he were to sit out 2019. Just sayin'

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Tourn46
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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by Tourn46 »

Would have to be the biggest shock in terms of 'silly season' that I can recall.

I'd still be extremely surprised if he's not on a good seat in 2019... just where? He's too good to miss out... isn't he?

Japhrodisiac
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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by Japhrodisiac »

Tourn46 wrote:Would have to be the biggest shock in terms of 'silly season' that I can recall.

I'd still be extremely surprised if he's not on a good seat in 2019... just where? He's too good to miss out... isn't he?
I think so too but...

Multiple teams suggesting his price tag is too high, which suggests that his manager is still asking for top dollar, which is the wrong approach now imo. He should go for an Iannone type salary with heavy weighting on win/podium bonuses, that could still make him a pretty penny if the results come.

Factories will pay for results, but won't pay for no-shows so...accommodate them

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Tourn46
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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by Tourn46 »

Japhrodisiac wrote:
Tourn46 wrote:Would have to be the biggest shock in terms of 'silly season' that I can recall.

I'd still be extremely surprised if he's not on a good seat in 2019... just where? He's too good to miss out... isn't he?
I think so too but...

Multiple teams suggesting his price tag is too high, which suggests that his manager is still asking for top dollar, which is the wrong approach now imo. He should go for an Iannone type salary with heavy weighting on win/podium bonuses, that could still make him a pretty penny if the results come.

Factories will pay for results, but won't pay for no-shows so...accommodate them
Am I correct in thinking Rossi pretty much had to accept a negligible salary in order to get his Yamaha seat back? Jorge could be looking at that kind of scenario... Rossi was what, 34 then, Jorge is 31 now... It's not beyond question that he lacks leverage to demand the big bucks after 2 pretty poor seasons (assuming 2018 continues as it started).

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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by JanBros »

Tourn46 wrote: I'd still be extremely surprised if he's not on a good seat in 2019... just where? He's too good to miss out... isn't he?
he is, or maybe better : he was. It is clear to everyone JL has 3 ptoblems :
* his un-ability to be fast in mixed conditions
* he clearly needs a specific type of bike. and we can all say the Soes is similar, it is far from proven fact it'll suit JL. And Ducati may develop the bike more towards him, but it would still leave question-marks if it will be good enough. In the mean time, others have no problem what so ever with current Duc and exploit the max out of it with it's strengths and weaknesses. Why would you spent energy and money on an uncertain prospect ?
* his paycheck. I think by now he knows he will be riding for a lot less than he did the last 7-8 years. But he would still expect a lot more than any other rider aiming at the remaining seats . I don't think he would be willing to drop as low as Petrucci's wages for example.

I still aplaude him for having the ball's to go to Ducati, but the coin will probably fall on the wrong side for him. And to some extend I feel he pushed the coin himself : when he vocaly attacked Dovizioso, no better words than Captain Bertorelli's (from the famous TV series Alo alocome to my mind : "What a mistake-a to make-a"

and on a side-note : JL's marketing-value is very low. Yes he is a multi-WC, but is fanbase is ... ???? I would almost say non-excistant :?
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Japhrodisiac
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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by Japhrodisiac »

I might be wrong but I think Yamaha gave Rossi 1m Euros in his comeback season, but then he makes a fortune on his sponsors and product etc, apparently, so he didn't have to eat ramen noodles all season long :lol:

I think he needs either a completely different Ducati, or, anything in blue. I would be very sad if he didn't have a bike that suited him next year

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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by Japhrodisiac »

JanBros wrote:
he is, or maybe better : he was. It is clear to everyone JL has 3 ptoblems :
* his un-ability to be fast in mixed conditions
* he clearly needs a specific type of bike. and we can all say the Soes is similar, it is far from proven fact it'll suit JL. And Ducati may develop the bike more towards him, but it would still leave question-marks if it will be good enough. In the mean time, others have no problem what so ever with current Duc and exploit the max out of it with it's strengths and weaknesses. Why would you spent energy and money on an uncertain prospect ?
* his paycheck. I think by now he knows he will be riding for a lot less than he did the last 7-8 years. But he would still expect a lot more than any other rider aiming at the remaining seats . I don't think he would be willing to drop as low as Petrucci's wages for example.
problem 3 will solve itself. In stock trading, there is a saying, the best cure for high prices is high prices.

On the Ducati, even in races he has done relatively well on, he has been on soft tires, and the result is always the same, good start then the inevitable move towards the back. Why keep putting on the softs if the result is always the same? Why still have a fuel tank that doesn't fit him 1.5 seasons later?
Ducati always seems to have this issue, and not taking blame away from Jorge here, but if one rider can ride it, then the bike is great. Yes some riders other than Dovi do well on it from time to time but imo not regularly enough to really call it 'fixed'. To me the bike should be one that anyone could get on and go fast, like the 2015/16 Yamahas, like this year' Honda, that should be the goal. Ducati often mentions in the press that 'he could be good on the ducati' or he is a 'ducati style rider' but imo this is still off the mark. Remember it took Dovi 4 seasons at least to start doing well on it, notwithstanding all the bike changes in the interim. All the talk about making a bike that suits Jorge, I suppose that went out the window when Dovi started winning.

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JanBros
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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by JanBros »

Japhrodisiac wrote: On the Ducati, even in races he has done relatively well on, he has been on soft tires, and the result is always the same, good start then the inevitable move towards the back. Why keep putting on the softs if the result is always the same? Why still have a fuel tank that doesn't fit him 1.5 seasons later?
Ducati always seems to have this issue, and not taking blame away from Jorge here, but if one rider can ride it, then the bike is great. Yes some riders other than Dovi do well on it from time to time but imo not regularly enough to really call it 'fixed'. To me the bike should be one that anyone could get on and go fast, like the 2015/16 Yamahas, like this year' Honda, that should be the goal. Ducati often mentions in the press that 'he could be good on the ducati' or he is a 'ducati style rider' but imo this is still off the mark. Remember it took Dovi 4 seasons at least to start doing well on it, notwithstanding all the bike changes in the interim. All the talk about making a bike that suits Jorge, I suppose that went out the window when Dovi started winning.
dovi's first years was on a crap bike. It didn't took Dovi 4 seasons to get the hang of it, it took Ducati 4 years to built a good bike. And it is ! Not only Dovi can win with it, Iannone also did. Petrucci very nearly did. Miller is clearly showing that last years bike is capable of riding for the podium THIS year.

suppose it is you that employs JL, you payed big bucks to lure him away from a competitorJL, but he does not do a good job (any job, let's say he is a IT-programmer). On his previous employer, he worked with Windows, you are working with Apple's OX, and JL simply does not gell with Ox after 1.5 years, allthough you have done lot to bring his OX computer closer to a windows computer.
you know there are a lot of OX-It'ers available. they cost a lot less, don't need a specialy-adapted computer and can work well with an off-the-shelve computer. What would you do ?
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CLX
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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by CLX »

Ducatis work better with soft tyres and Lorenzo has always been a great starter, so it's not like he deliberately chosing an unsuccessful strategy.

Lorenzo is kind of the middle child of the alien generation. Squeezed between Rossi, Stoner and Marquez and always the rival of someone more popular and adored by fans, media and the paddock.

Unfortunately he should just sign whatever contract Suzuki give him, if they do at all. And if he remains as fast as ever, his results should naturally take a leap in 2019.
Last edited by CLX on Mon May 21, 2018 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Japhrodisiac
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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by Japhrodisiac »

JanBros wrote:
dovi's first years was on a crap bike. It didn't took Dovi 4 seasons to get the hang of it, it took Ducati 4 years to built a good bike. And it is ! Not only Dovi can win with it, Iannone also did. Petrucci very nearly did. Miller is clearly showing that last years bike is capable of riding for the podium THIS year.

suppose it is you that employs JL, you payed big bucks to lure him away from a competitorJL, but he does not do a good job (any job, let's say he is a IT-programmer). On his previous employer, he worked with Windows, you are working with Apple's OX, and JL simply does not gell with Ox after 1.5 years, allthough you have done lot to bring his OX computer closer to a windows computer.
you know there are a lot of OX-It'ers available. they cost a lot less, don't need a specialy-adapted computer and can work well with an off-the-shelve computer. What would you do ?
Dovi WAS NOT the rider he is now, then, either. He has learned, and Ducati has been building the bike that he has been asking for. Your claim that anyone can ride it is not borne out by win results, but a smattering of podiums in a number of conditions.

Your analogy is a poor one imo, there are a VERY limited number of proven top riders (aliens? though I do hate that term) and Jorge is one of them, albeit with limitations, and Rossi btw showed a variation of those limitations on the Ducati. You analogy suggest you simply hire a more suitable employee, but in racing, you either hire a proven quantity or you hire younger potential that may never flourish and produce. And seasoned producers are but a handful in the world, unlike computer programmers. The delicate interplay between bike/rider/tires is far too complex for your simplistic analogy imo

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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by Japhrodisiac »

CLX wrote:Ducatis work better with soft tyres and Lorenzo has always been a great starter, so it's not like he deliberately chosing an unsuccessful strategy.

Lorenzo is kind of the middle child of the alien generation. Squeezed between Rossi, Stoner and Marquez and always the rival of someone more popular and adored by fans, media and the paddock.

Unfortunately he should just sign whatever contract Suzuki give him, if they do at all. And if he remains as fast as ever, his results should naturally take a lepa in 2019.
I agree that he should just take Iannone money in 2019 from Suzuki, if indeed it is on offer, and get on with his career, because it is extremely unlikely the situation at Ducati will change in his direction or that he will magically become a different rider overnight.

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Tourn46
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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by Tourn46 »

Did you see that Gigi publically said that if Petrux continues as he is, then he deserves the factory seat?

Got to be a clue...

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CLX
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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by CLX »

What do you guys think of Lorenzo and Aprilia? It wouldn't be as promising as Suzuki, but they could help each other, boost their chances of survival in the mid term and possibly help Lorenzo whenever another good ride becomes available.

Is there any chance it could happen?

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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by JanBros »

CLX wrote:What do you guys think of Lorenzo and Aprilia? It wouldn't be as promising as Suzuki, but they could help each other, boost their chances of survival in the mid term and possibly help Lorenzo whenever another good ride becomes available.

Is there any chance it could happen?
sure there is a chance. I bet it is his only chance for a factory ride. unless ... nobody talks about Honda, I think with good reason.
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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by snowman »

Tourn46 wrote:Did you see that Gigi publically said that if Petrux continues as he is, then he deserves the factory seat?

Got to be a clue...
There were more words of encouragement from the Borgo Panigale factory too – with Sporting Director Paolo Ciabatti heaping praise on Petrucci.

“It was a great race for Danilo. We’ll talk about his future during the next few days, with the goal of making a decision after Mugello…but his performance today has certainly helped. He’s made an important step in the right direction. We have an option with him and Miller that runs out at the end of June. We’ll see because there is also Lorenzo in the mix, but today Petrucci deserved the Ducati.”

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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by warthog1 »

Tourn46 wrote:Am I correct in thinking Rossi pretty much had to accept a negligible salary in order to get his Yamaha seat back? Jorge could be looking at that kind of scenario... Rossi was what, 34 then, Jorge is 31 now... It's not beyond question that he lacks leverage to demand the big bucks after 2 pretty poor seasons (assuming 2018 continues as it started).
This.
He needs to drop his price.
It is quite possible you could put some of his poor showing down to Michelin tyres and their narrow operating window too.
In which case he is in the poo.
https://michelinmotorsport.com/News/Mic ... until-2023

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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by Rick650 »

It us unbelievably weird to see Lorenzo being a road block in the middle of corners and relying on firing it out using the Ducati corner exit advantages.
This is a rider that has always been strong and fast mid corner, so much so that it was a point of advantage for him.
Again strange, he has also always been smooth and great at tyre conservation yet we get the far mor aggressive Petrucci still going strong at the end of the race on the same soft combination that Lorenzo is fading on far earlier in the race.
Maybe those very good Yamahas that he won championships on were just a perfect match for his style.

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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by CLX »

Does Michelin have a narrow operating window or are the complaints of the crashers distracting people?

At Jerez and at Le Mans no two riders on the podium were using the same tyre choice. So it's not like the grid is forced into certain choices irregardless of their bikes.

Narrow operating windows and few choices was a Bridgestone thing though. Their rock hard incredibly grippy F1 like front tyres was one of the reasons Aliens on factory bikes dominated so heavily.

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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by warthog1 »

CLX wrote:Does Michelin have a narrow operating window or are the complaints of the crashers distracting people?

At Jerez and at Le Mans no two riders on the podium were using the same tyre choice. So it's not like the grid is forced into certain choices irregardless of their bikes.

Narrow operating windows and few choices was a Bridgestone thing though. Their rock hard incredibly grippy F1 like front tyres was one of the reasons Aliens on factory bikes dominated so heavily.
The issue is the relatively narrow operating range of the tyres. Michelin says its MotoGP tyres work within a 15-degree temperature range – fronts at around 90 to 100 degC and rears at around 110 to 120 degC – but this seems optimistic. One of the contestants for the championship recently told me that the window is “very, very, very, very small”.

Bridgestone too had issues during its seven years as MotoGP’s control rubber supplier. Its tyres had a broader operating range, because its engineers had no choice but to design this feature into their tyres. Bridgestone sea-freighted tyres to most races, so it didn’t have the luxury of producing tyres according to the latest weather forecast. Bridgestone’s problem was that its tyres were too slow to warm up and too quick to cool down, which caused plenty of crashes, especially during the early years, when corner-entry highsides (and the injuries that go with such crashes) were a real concern.


https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... -explained

Last years tyres, but I can only go with what is written.

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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by bikermike »

I don't know if it's just his money - he is a #1 rider in a team
It looks like most teams have got their #1 rider sorted out (Honda, KTM, Yamaha). If he went to Aprilia he'd clearly be #1 ahead of Espargaro (IMO). But if Suzuki have decided to go with Rins as their main bet, do they think Lorenzo would be a destabilising influence - even if he were racing for beans.

it's a bit like a senior person trying to take a junior job - even if you can persuade the employer you'll except the salary cut, how do you demonstrate you won't upset the corporate applecart and/or naff off to the first senior-paying job that comes along.

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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by bikermike »

Norton are looking for a rider for the TT :D

be a nice little change of scenery, and no risk of Rossi showing up...

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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by Tourn46 »

bikermike wrote:If he went to Aprilia he'd clearly be #1 ahead of Espargaro (IMO).
You see, this would concern me because I'm not sure Jorge is a take the bike by the scruff of the neck and make it work kind of guy... I wouldn't be surprised if Aleix, in that environment and on "sub-par" equipment beat him.

I think Aliex thrives on it, whereas, Jorge would bemoan it.

I might be talking shite... but it's just my gut feeling.

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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by warthog1 »

Tourn46 wrote:
I might be talking shite... but it's just my gut feeling.
You are :) [emoji14]
On Alex Rins at Suzuki as their #1.
Seriously.
What has he done in motogp.
Not much from what I've seen.
If he is the #1 they really are in the poo.
Maybe the Aprilia wouldn't be such a bad option.

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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by hdot »

CLX wrote:What do you guys think of Lorenzo and Aprilia? It wouldn't be as promising as Suzuki, but they could help each other, boost their chances of survival in the mid term and possibly help Lorenzo whenever another good ride becomes available.

Is there any chance it could happen?
I suggested this in the silly season thread... Aprilia's chassis is supposedly top notch, but they keep blowing engines up.

Unfortunately, on the self awareness spectrum in the grid, Jorge is on the low side and may not be cognizant of the real status of the situation. Combined with percentage hungry yes-men management, he may very well Jorge himself out of a ride.

If I were Jorge I would take a pay cut to go to Aprilia, but get some kind of financial commitment towards the development of the bike; specifically engine reliability. I'd ask for some manpower commitments as well. If they make it work it would be huge for Aprilia and Jorge, and on paper the bike sounds right up his alley. But he has to put his pride to the side and put his career ahead of a paycheck.

Japhrodisiac
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Re: Jorge Lorenzo

Post by Japhrodisiac »

A lot of factories seem to be banking on the unknown now, over the known. Rins has a lot of potential, but then again, maybe this is it, podium then a few crashes. Same with Iannone, maybe 1 win every few seasons, a few podiums then a spate of crashes. So far, only a very few have won race after race and multiple championships. That's what I would put my money on...

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