2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class
hdot
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by hdot »

I like Dovi but the only way I see him pulling away from Marc is if Marc gets a DNF

24 points is a lot to cover and Marquez is in frightening form

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pom
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by pom »

warthog1 wrote:Dovi is still going to give it a good shake I reckon.
He had way more pace than we all expected. He is still going to be very fast at most tracks.
I think so. Dovi impressed me quite a lot in Jerez.

About Zarco vs Yam boyz. I guess it's indeed a multifaceted issue. Zarco comes from Moto2 and he's probably more used to manage without electronics. Maverick in Argentina and Austin told to everybody he had to convince Yamaha to unleash a bit electronics in order he could be able to manage more himself as well.

I think Rossi is the guy who miss badly the proprietary electronics.

From what I remember (there was a very insightful article on that subject in speedweek a few weeks ago) datas which feed the ECU are for the most part (95%) designed in the factory so it's the same for factory and tech3 bikes in the sense their electronics is mostly designed by Yamaha. But considering Tech3 and Factory bikes are significantly different ( and not only the engine with less revs?... ) the basic datas are already different. The team itself can adjust for the 5% left depending on what the rider needs. Zarco's riding style is too different from Rossi's and VInales one to be used as an exemple.

But basically I think Zarco manage better the lack of grip and dominated the two factory riders every time the grip was subpar (bad asphalt, wet conditions, hot conditions) Remember he was the king of worn tyres in Moto2.

We'll see in Le Mans if the frenchman made enough progress to be competitive as well when the grip is perfect. Last year he was almost there but not quite.

But basically, the issue is still that the Yamaha struggles more than other bikes when the grip is lacking.
Last edited by pom on Mon May 07, 2018 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tourn46
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by Tourn46 »

Japhrodisiac wrote: Rins is going to have to step up and finish soon otherwise we'll call him Bins.
Made me chuckle :lol:

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CLX
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by CLX »

Tourn46 wrote:Random thought:

What's happened to Bulega? Surely he's going to be out of a ride at this rate?
I ask myself the same question every weekend and have no idea.

---

As for Yamaha poaching Magnetti Marelli engineers, it does seem to be an extremely simple solution. Could it be their cultural pride getting in the way? I think/guess too much pride was also an issue which eventually helped Tech 3 jump ship to KTM.

Random question, how many engineers does MM employ? How many of them would be highest levels guys who could actully make a quick impact if hired by Yamaha? I have no idea what is MM's size/workforce.

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JanBros
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by JanBros »

Zarco's job is very simple copared to the factory boys : he has a bike conscisting of a specific engine, a specific frame and some data that goes with them. That's all he has to be concerned about. No development to do, nothing to test, just endless finetuning. that's a lot easier than having to test different parts to make the bike better when you even do not know what the problem is. Which is Yamaha's problem : from day to day their performance differs without knowing the cause. And if you do not know the cause, their is only "trial and error" which works fine from a mechanics point of view, but not for engineers.
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Japhrodisiac
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by Japhrodisiac »

Mark won championships on bikes that no one else could ride, now it seems he's on a more user-friendly bike. Scary stuff in terms of potential.

Zarco mentioned that one of the reasons he went to KTM was that he and Fellon discussed the idea that, what if Marc rode the KTM? Where would it finish? Then they decided to go for it.

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Tourn46
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by Tourn46 »

Did you see that Dovi was trying to rejoin the race with Lorenzo's bike? I assume that's against the rules if he'd have got going again?

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CLX
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by CLX »

It would have been slightly comical.
I was worried there would be a red flag because of Pedrosa's bike. In which case, I wonder if Lorenzo and Dovi would have been on the podium.

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JanBros
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by JanBros »

I found it very strange each Duc had at least 3 marshalls busy with it, and no one thought about getting Dany's bike of the track :?

I think their will have been some shouting in the debrief of the marshalls after the race.
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Nessuno
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by Nessuno »

I had missed that! I wonder if something like that has ever actually happened before.

As for the marshalls, I think they knew Dani's bike couldn't be grabbed just yet, there were still 15-20 that needed to come by first.

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pom
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by pom »

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/89549 ... helping-me

So Zarco confirms he struggles with acceleration as well. Electronics is the culprit. I definitely think he knows better how to deal with the issue mostly because he's new in MotoGP, he still remembers how he managed in Moto2 and never used anything else that spec electronics and that's it.

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CLX
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by CLX »

JanBros wrote:Zarco's job is very simple copared to the factory boys : he has a bike conscisting of a specific engine, a specific frame and some data that goes with them. That's all he has to be concerned about. No development to do, nothing to test, just endless finetuning. that's a lot easier than having to test different parts to make the bike better when you even do not know what the problem is. Which is Yamaha's problem : from day to day their performance differs without knowing the cause. And if you do not know the cause, their is only "trial and error" which works fine from a mechanics point of view, but not for engineers.
That goes hand in hand with what Zarco said today after the test session. He didn't try anyting and simply worked on the set up to find more grip.

Vinales, who happened to look positively devastated on the clip, was entirely bleak. "We didn't solve, still, nothing".

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speeddog
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by speeddog »

I have zero sympathy for Yamaha's dilemma.
Yamaha Factory can do the same as Zarco & Tech3, spend the time just to find more grip.
They know exactly what hardware is on Zarco's bike, they can replicate that as they've got access to it all.
They've got way more manpower and budget, I reckon by an order of magnitude, or more.
With that and all of the data, they should be able to get it sorted.

The bike has the speed in it, Zarco and Tech3 have found it, Yamaha Factory needs to find it.

Alternatively, they can just admit that their riders are less skilled than Zarco.
Perhaps they can admit that their team is less skilled than Tech3.
Or that the factory got the labels on wrong and sent all the good kit to Tech3 and all the junk to Maverick and Valentino.
I don't believe any of that is the case, and those would be epically counterproductive bombshells to drop.
Tech3 is thrashing them with their own lower-spec satellite kit, putting Yamaha on the horns of a diabolical dilemma.
Unfortunately the entire factory effort is under the bus, and there's nobody left to throw.

hdot
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by hdot »

MAn, if you have a MotoGP.com subscription check out MAverick's post test interview. Dude is completely defeated.

I feel for him (as much as I feel for someone who makes millions riding a motorcycle for a living). Work all your life to get to MotoGP and land a seat on a Yamaha.... only for it to suck the moment you jump on it, AND get beat by riders on the bike you just left. Hopefully Yamaha turns things around fast or silly season will get flat out ridiculous.

snowman
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by snowman »

hdot wrote:I like Dovi but the only way I see him pulling away from Marc is if Marc gets a DNF

24 points is a lot to cover and Marquez is in frightening form
Really wasn't that the case last year, the Marquez engine failure that kept it close.

snowman
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by snowman »

speeddog wrote:I have zero sympathy for Yamaha's dilemma.
Yamaha Factory can do the same as Zarco & Tech3, spend the time just to find more grip.
They know exactly what hardware is on Zarco's bike, they can replicate that as they've got access to it all.
They've got way more manpower and budget, I reckon by an order of magnitude, or more.
With that and all of the data, they should be able to get it sorted.

The bike has the speed in it, Zarco and Tech3 have found it, Yamaha Factory needs to find it.

Alternatively, they can just admit that their riders are less skilled than Zarco.
Perhaps they can admit that their team is less skilled than Tech3.
Or that the factory got the labels on wrong and sent all the good kit to Tech3 and all the junk to Maverick and Valentino.
I don't believe any of that is the case, and those would be epically counterproductive bombshells to drop.
Tech3 is thrashing them with their own lower-spec satellite kit, putting Yamaha on the horns of a diabolical dilemma.
Unfortunately the entire factory effort is under the bus, and there's nobody left to throw.
They tried going back to the chassis Zarco was using last year, said it had a little better feel but was to hard on the rear tire. Rossi being one step away from retirement not going to push close the limits of the bike. Vinales's mindset might be his undoing.

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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by warthog1 »

snowman wrote:
speeddog wrote:I have zero sympathy for Yamaha's dilemma.
Yamaha Factory can do the same as Zarco & Tech3, spend the time just to find more grip.
They know exactly what hardware is on Zarco's bike, they can replicate that as they've got access to it all.
They've got way more manpower and budget, I reckon by an order of magnitude, or more.
With that and all of the data, they should be able to get it sorted.

The bike has the speed in it, Zarco and Tech3 have found it, Yamaha Factory needs to find it.

Alternatively, they can just admit that their riders are less skilled than Zarco.
Perhaps they can admit that their team is less skilled than Tech3.
Or that the factory got the labels on wrong and sent all the good kit to Tech3 and all the junk to Maverick and Valentino.
I don't believe any of that is the case, and those would be epically counterproductive bombshells to drop.
Tech3 is thrashing them with their own lower-spec satellite kit, putting Yamaha on the horns of a diabolical dilemma.
Unfortunately the entire factory effort is under the bus, and there's nobody left to throw.
They tried going back to the chassis Zarco was using last year, said it had a little better feel but was to hard on the rear tire. Rossi being one step away from retirement not going to push close the limits of the bike. Vinales's mindset might be his undoing.
In that case Zarco is a better rider then.
Is he better at saving the tyres and setting up the bike in only his second season of motoGP?
I'd say he is a gun but so are the 2 factory riders. The factory team has pigheadedly got something wrong and is stubbornly sticking with the flawed approach.
That is how it appears to me, with the little I know.

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speeddog
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by speeddog »

My post sounded a bit like it was slagging Zarco, not intended at all.

The field will rue the day of his first win.

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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by warthog1 »

It didn't to me. It said he can ride a bike at the limit that the others can't?
Maybe he can. I don't know enough to make the call.

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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by speeddog »

He's got some serious throttle control.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by Mikesbytes »

Some riders are simply awesome on a less than perfect bike and then, as bizarre as it sounds, aren't able to improve on a better version of the bike. The example being Barbera, he was awesome on the Ducati's upto and including the GP14.2, but once on the GP15 onwards he sucked, it seemed that he didn't like the counter rotating crankshaft.

I suspect to a small degree this is what is happening with Yamaha but its really hard to gauge, the bike is better but Vinales/Rossi for whatever reason aren't capatilising on the improvements. What is amusing is Vinales holding up the white flag while coming 3rd in the championship :)

Championship wise I'm foreseeing a year like back in the Doohan era when we knew all year who was going to take the championship so it was the individual races that were of interest
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Vmax666
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by Vmax666 »

Only Marquez is going to beat Marquez.
The most consistent rider by far
He can be beaten but doing it every race is impossible. But he will make mistakes and someone needs the consistency to be near enough to put pressure on him when the mistakes are done
Currently everyone one else is making more mistakes

hdot
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by hdot »

Yea Marquez biggest adversary is himself. Only he can manage to be like 3 seconds a lap faster than the field, go from last to fifth, finish the race and still come away with no points. Rain, flag to flag, hot, cold, fast corners, slow corners, it really doesn't matter. Dude is a freak of nature

kenup283
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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by kenup283 »

I heard comentators during race say one of the factory yamaha riders felt like they were riding a bull. Which means they are pushing the bike too hard. The yamaha punishes such behavior so fits with the struggles.

We see the riders all talking electronics but I do not think means they agreed in the direction. I seem to recall Vinales speaking about taking some control away last round and was a break through for him. Yet Rossi seems to speak as he's looking for more control.

Following the story line that at least two other teams have have picked off Magneti Marelli engineers it may be the top tallent has been poached already. But here again when you see Zarcos comments hes saying coy things like grip does not come from electronics, so the inference would be he's not looking to help grip or drive like the factory seems to be when he mentions workkng on electronics.

I also find it intresting with the talk of Moto2 as a helping due to its simplicity that they now have intriduced traction controls and are increasing the electroincs on the basis that the riders need to be introduced to such concepts to help them make the transition and step to MotoGp.

I was a bit bummed not to see any of Crutchlows flying lap in qualifying. Seems they kept jumping around as riders cross the finish line versus following riders in quick lap around. I know it was hard to know who to follow, but couldnt help but feel some irony in the comentary saying fastest lap we've seen around the cjrcuit jerez, as we saw none of it.

As for the crashes, we saw in the other races where multiple, three even four riders, went down due to a single initiating contact. I think some of this could be motogp riders getting use to riding in close packs again.

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Re: 2018 Round 4: Gran Premio Red Bull de España

Post by Jagbruno »

"As for the crashes, we saw in the other races where multiple, three even four riders, went down due to a single initiating contact. I think some of this could be motogp riders getting use to riding in close packs again."

Well there was a time when riders could compete in different classes on the same WE...it would be great to see that happening again.


But it won't.

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