Silly Season

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class
Japhrodisiac
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Japhrodisiac »

I am honestly fed up with Zarco, the sense of entitlement, the open insults to the other teams working their asses off, the other riders that would give their left or right nut to be in a position for some of the offers he's been given...

To turn down the Avintia ride with the promise of extra support from Ducati, insulting them along the way, meanwhile his results in his 3 end of season outing were ok, nothing to set the world on fire, a DNF of his own doing, a 13th place finish and a dnf of someone else's doing, we'll call that very average.

He had the opportunity to convince HRC/Repsol to take him and they declined. If he goes to Moto2, given his history, he'll never make it back to the big show.

Avintia IMO is his last real option, but for some reason, Zarco can't see it

gwcrim
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Re: Silly Season

Post by gwcrim »

Japhrodisiac wrote: Avintia IMO is his last real option, but for some reason, Zarco can't see it
Probably so. He's no youngster and certainly no alien. His arrogance has been his downfall.

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WayneG
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Re: Silly Season

Post by WayneG »

Emoo wrote:I think HRC managed to get the rules changed for to get him into the factory squad in his rookie season (am I wrong here?)
Actually I think you are. :)

From memory it was LCR who asked for the rule to be changed. As Marc was going to bring a lot of his Moto2 team with him, for LCR to take him on they would have had to lay off a lot of their own staff for the 12 months Marc rode for them and then rebuild their team from scratch when he moved on to Repsol. This would have been incredibly disruptive to LCR and I believe it was their request to DORNA to change the rookie rule to allow Marc to go directly to the factory team and as such keep their own team intact,
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p4p1
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Re: Silly Season

Post by p4p1 »

gwcrim wrote:
Emoo wrote: I think HRC managed to get the rules changed for to get him into the factory squad in his rookie season (am I wrong here?)

I'll be thinking to myself "is this how it felt to be a non Rossi fan back in the day when he was winning all the time".

Marc is playing a racing sim on easy mode at the moment - as in awe of him as I am watching him ride a motorcycle, I'd love someone to find a power up to mix it up a little bit, or atleast ask him to turn off "ideal racing line"
Ya, Honda got Dorna to change the rule for MM. Prior to that, rookies couldn't have a factory seat. Wasn't that rule instituted because of Nicky Hayden? Or KRJR?

Rossi is fading and his personality will never be replaced, though his dominance of the field sure has.

MM really has no real competition at the moment. I suspect he'll dominate the sport for years but every now and then the right combination of events will align and he'll not take the championship.
It was something to do with giving satellite teams the option of the best new riders. As said above me it wasn’t ideal for the satellite teams in the end. IMO it was a shit rule that was going to disadvantage rookies that deserved a factory seat. Lorenzo, Pedrosa and a host of others through the years have gone straight to a factory seat.

In any case whether it was LCR or HRC that wanted the rule removed, the first time a rider was good enough to step straight into a factory team the rule was removed. Spies might’ve had a whinge about it when Marquez was signed but neither Rossi nor Lorenzo were making way for him.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Mikesbytes »

I agree that Zarco should of taken the Ducati/Avinta deal. Ducati would know how well he's doing based on what support and bike he has for 2020 and would decide whether to promote him for 2021. Back in Moto2 he needs to be totally dominate to jump back to a MotoGP factory in 2021

WayneG good point about the disruption to the team, have to say I hadn't thought about that. I think the rookie rule to Satellite teams existed to try to get the rookie teams and competitive advantage as they would have the top rookies each year

Any news on Lorenzo? Is he off to plant olive trees or whatever the Spanish version of "gone fishing" is
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Mikesbytes
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Mikesbytes »

Alex Marquez's team is Lorenzo's team with no adjustments. I'm guessing that's a result of the contract being done at such short notice and at a guess his team in Moto2 + Lorenzo's team already have contracts for 2020
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snowman
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Re: Silly Season

Post by snowman »

CLX wrote:HRC's cunning is next to none.
They have given Marc the only single teammate on the world who'd encourage him to develop a bike mortals can race.
Touché.

edit: I have shamelessly stolen this from twitter.
No brotherly love here.
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speeddog
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Re: Silly Season

Post by speeddog »

snowman wrote: No brotherly love here.
https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/93457 ... asier-bike
Perhaps we'll see just how ruthless Marc is.

Rick650
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Rick650 »

I am sure the Marquez family and supporting group had a very serious and extended discussion about the risk of RC213V to a rookie MotoGP rider before Alex committed. They seem like a group that is very aware and closely meshed and that doesn't rush into things without due consideration.
In terms of opportunity for Alex to learn, who better to give advice on riding a Honda than Marc and his support team?

As an aside, the recognised difficulty in getting the best out of the narrow focus, difficult RC213V partly undermines the argument that Marc needs to move to a different manufacturer to be seen as truly great. He is already getting the best out of the hardest bike on the grid to ride fast, anything else should be easier = but not necessarily faster.

hdot
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Re: Silly Season

Post by hdot »

I forget whether I read it here or on Reddit but someone pointed to a very interesting catch-22 that kind of glues Marquez to Honda. I'm pretty sure someone at KTM said this.

But the gist of it was if Marquez changes bikes and wins, he gets all the credit. If he loses, the manufacturer gets all the blame. So couple that with the congressional budget a factory would have to offer him to switch and there's really nothing in it for the manufacturer. He could probably win on my ER6 with a 250 shot of nitrous AFAIK so I don't know that he would offer much broad developmental value. He's young but there are younger cheaper talents available. So thinking about it maybe HRC has more leverage than we think.

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Fingernails
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Fingernails »

hdot wrote:I forget whether I read it here or on Reddit but someone pointed to a very interesting catch-22 that kind of glues Marquez to Honda. I'm pretty sure someone at KTM said this.

But the gist of it was if Marquez changes bikes and wins, he gets all the credit. If he loses, the manufacturer gets all the blame. So couple that with the congressional budget a factory would have to offer him to switch and there's really nothing in it for the manufacturer. He could probably win on my ER6 with a 250 shot of nitrous AFAIK so I don't know that he would offer much broad developmental value. He's young but there are younger cheaper talents available. So thinking about it maybe HRC has more leverage than we think.
If he switched to KTM, and won with KTM, I would think that KTM getting even part of the credit would be enough to tempt them very seriously.

When Rossi switched to Yamaha, Rossi got a lot of credit early on. But, with Lorenzo arriving, challenging, and then beating Rossi, I think that more of the credit for winning went to Yamaha. Nowdays it's clear that the Yamaha is a top bike. Would Yamaha be where they are now if not for Rossi going there?

gwcrim
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Re: Silly Season

Post by gwcrim »

If Marc could win on a KTM it would prove to the world that their bike is capable of winning. No one else seems to be able to win on a Honda. What does that say about Honda?

hdot
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Re: Silly Season

Post by hdot »

gwcrim wrote:If Marc could win on a KTM it would prove to the world that their bike is capable of winning. No one else seems to be able to win on a Honda. What does that say about Honda?
I mean nobody else has won on a KTM either. If Marc jumped on and started winning immediately it would be a hell of a coincidence if the bike just happened to become a winner right before his arrival. KTM would get dismissed the same way Honda is now.

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Fingernails
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Fingernails »

Cal won a race on a Honda last year, so it's not too long ago that someone other than Marc won on a Honda. And Cal was second at Philip Island behind Marquez - admittedly due to Vinales falling - and he's had two thirds. I'm not sure that I'd say that no-one else is able to win on a Honda. Just that no-one else has won on a Honda last year - which is a different thing.

Vmax666
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Vmax666 »

It’s easy to forget but when Rossi switched from the dominant honda to yamaha the M1 hadn’t won a race or showed any promise despite having good riders on it previously
And everyone credited the Rossi wins to Rossi and burgess being able to develop any bike into a winner
The yamaha then went on to be the bike to beat
No one remembers the amount of money and personnel changes yamaha made to make it more competitive that year
And as Rossi showed going to ducati. His and burgess development skills were not what they thought

Would Marquez win on the ktm. I think so but mainly because after hiring him ktm would also have to invest even more heavily on personnel and development
Will ktm win with pol. I don’t think so unless there are many dnf’s for the other riders

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Fingernails
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Fingernails »

Vmax666 wrote:It’s easy to forget but when Rossi switched from the dominant honda to yamaha the M1 hadn’t won a race or showed any promise despite having good riders on it previously
And everyone credited the Rossi wins to Rossi and burgess being able to develop any bike into a winner
The yamaha then went on to be the bike to beat
No one remembers the amount of money and personnel changes yamaha made to make it more competitive that year
In 2002 Max Biaggi on the Yamaha won two races and had a very large number of podium finishes. While Yamaha and no wins and I think one podium finish or so in 2003, Biaggi had left. Carlos Checa didn't do as well in 2003 as in 2002, so the bike had taken a step back. But, I don't think it's quite accurate to say that the Yamaha hadn't shown any promise prior to Rossi arriving. Yes, Yamaha did invest heavily in the bike and make personnel changes, but I don't think the Yamaha came from nowhere. If Rossi had been on the Yamaha in 2002 and Biaggi on the Honda, I think that Rossi would still have won the championship in 2002. When Biaggi moved to Honda in 2003, his results were no better against Rossi than he had done on the Yamaha, and Biaggi was outclassed by Gibernau. The Yamaha of 2002 was already a potential championship winning bike.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Mikesbytes »

The MM to KTM discussion reminds me of the Schmarker to Mindardi discussion. If I world champion went to a slower manufacturer a bucket load of money would follow him and then there will be a bunch a top support staff and major redevelopment so it will be difficult to tell how much was rider and how much was the caravan trail that followed him. Didn't work with Rossi to Ducati
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snowman
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Re: Silly Season

Post by snowman »

Someone going to great lengths for Zarco or coincidence.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/93460 ... open-zarco

gwcrim
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Re: Silly Season

Post by gwcrim »

snowman wrote:Someone going to great lengths for Zarco or coincidence.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/93460 ... open-zarco
JZ is in tight with Carmine and Carmine wants him in the big show.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Mikesbytes »

If Zarco does take the ride, would Ducati be giving him a 2020 model? If so that will mean 5 2020 slots. And what about support? there's talk about Avintia being upgraded but does it make Avintia another Parmac?
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Mikesbytes
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Mikesbytes »

Mikesbytes wrote:If Zarco does take the ride, would Ducati be giving him a 2020 model? If so that will mean 5 2020 slots. And what about support? there's talk about Avintia being upgraded but does it make Avintia another Parmac?
Testing on Monday, we shall see if Zarco turns up

I'm also wondering what the deal is behind Abraham departing
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Jagbruno
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Jagbruno »

So, Augusto Fernandez at Marc VDS Moto2 closes the door to Zarco there, as if there was still any doubt that he is indeed going to Avintia Ducati.

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Fingernails
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Fingernails »

Jagbruno wrote:So, Augusto Fernandez at Marc VDS Moto2 closes the door to Zarco there, as if there was still any doubt that he is indeed going to Avintia Ducati.
While Abraham 'retired', it seems that he is not happy with what has happened. https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/93461 ... otogp-exit

Crutchlow is not happy that some of his team that went to the factory team to help Lorenzo are not returning. https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/93458 ... -them-back

Avintia will field Granado at the next test. https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/93458 ... -them-back I think that there is some interesting consequences of this. Is MotoE seen as a series from which riders can progress (or return) to MotoGP?

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Mikesbytes
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Mikesbytes »

So Avintia has used a point about sponsorship money as the excuse for cancelling Abraham's contract https://motomatters.com/news/2019/11/23 ... nates.html. Sounds like they were just looking for a loophole to make the slot available
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Mikesbytes
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Re: Silly Season

Post by Mikesbytes »

Fingernails wrote: Avintia will field Granado at the next test. https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/93458 ... -them-back I think that there is some interesting consequences of this. Is MotoE seen as a series from which riders can progress (or return) to MotoGP?
https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/93461 ... otogp-test So they are getting Granado ready to be a backup rider for MotoGP
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