Silly Season

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class
snowman
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by snowman »

Thanks CLX, I heard that, the facebook piece made it sound like something new and not what you would expect.

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JanBros
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by JanBros »

I thinck Petruci is underperforming compared to 2017, and that if he does not improve he can forget the factory seat.
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Fred Gassit
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by Fred Gassit »

I'm not entirely sold on the "Lorenzo will go to Suzuki" scenario. I've got, a totally unsubstantiated, feeling he will stay at Ducati. If he moves, and it were me calling the shots at Ducati, I'd throw the second seat Millers way.

Anyway, what everyone else on the market does now hangs on Lorenzo and Pedrosa.

I will add that I agree with Petrucci. I can kind of understand why things happen the way they do/are, but for my mind I'm on the same page as him when he said,

“The only thing I can say is that it is a really stupid thing to choose the rider for the next three seasons, because there is more than half the season and the next two seasons in the first part of the season. For me it's a really stupid thing.
“For example, my ex-teammate Scott, what is his motivation that he already knows that he is out of his team? I don't understand what is the motivation to choose the rider at the second race or the third race.”


Silly season is starting at more stupid times every year.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by Mikesbytes »

Correct me if I'm wrong, Miller has done better than anyone else on a last year Ducati than anyone else in recent years

If Miller got the factory slot next to Dovi and Lorenzo got the Suzuki, that would leave Pettrucci and Iannone competing for the Aprilla and perhaps Pedrosa too
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hdot
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by hdot »

Just watched a MotoGP clip of Paolo Ciabatti (?) talking about Andrea's signing.... he was pretty upfront that they are looking at Petrucci and Miller for the factory spot next year and cited Lorenzo's budgetary demands. Black Americans have a saying... "you aint gotta go home, but you gotta get the#$%%^^&%^&% outta here!!!!!" Man that is some cold soup. When a top guy at the team is talking about other riders on your seat it's pretty clear what the sentiment is.

Indeed.com ---> "Factory MotoGP rider"

Hopefully Lorenzo lands at Suzuki. Would be crazy if he was out of a seat next year.

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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by Fred Gassit »

Brivio talking about maybe 2 young riders, ie Mir. Also referencing budget costs for rider salary.

What happens to Jorge if Suzuki do that, and Ducati do what everyone thinks they will do with their second seat?

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JanBros
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by JanBros »

Fred Gassit wrote:Brivio talking about maybe 2 young riders, ie Mir. Also referencing budget costs for rider salary.

What happens to Jorge if Suzuki do that, and Ducati do what everyone thinks they will do with their second seat?
Suzuki at the moment are in a very luxurious position. Honda may drop Pedrosa and Ducati may drop Lorenzo. Both thse teams already have their clear nr 1 rider, so the second rider does not need to be TOP and does not have to cost a lot of money. Suzuki would be stupid to sign their second rider soon. They can ait and wait and wait until their are more good riders than available factory seats and cut the paychecks of the remaining top riders considerably and in the mean time keep Iannone as motivated as possible. Than Lorenzo/Pedrosa/Iannone/... can fight amogst themselves who will be the cheapest 8-)

my guess : if JL does resign at Ducati, he is retiring.
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Japhrodisiac
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by Japhrodisiac »

Everyone talks about salary but few mention win/podium bonuses. If a top rider finds themselves due to circumstances without a top ride and they take a hefty pay cut, there should be a solid bonus structure in order to move up the overall pay ranks. Dovi did this last year, was on 1/6th Lorenzo's salary but apparently made out ok with win bonuses etc. If I was a rider looking for a spot, believed in myself to the extent Jorge does, I would cut my salary demands (as the Ducati money would float a jetsetter for some time) and put the emphasis on win/place bonuses. That would put him in a much stronger position.
Jorge isn't ready to retire, not by a long shot.

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JanBros
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by JanBros »

Japhrodisiac wrote: Jorge isn't ready to retire, not by a long shot.
I know he isn't, but what's he go to do if Ducati do not continue with him, and Pedrosa and Iannone keep their ride ? That would leave only the Aprilia ...
or back to Yamaha, as a satelite rider ...
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Mikesbytes
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by Mikesbytes »

Damian Hill in F1 was the classic case of a top sportsman going from a top team to a bottom team despite winning the world championship

Mathematics is not looking good for the riders who are/were at the pointy end, given the potential of;
Honda - Mur
Ducati - Pettrucci/Miller
That leaves Iannone, Pedrosa, Lorenzo and perhaps Pettrucci looking at two bikes;
Suzuki
Aprilla
Neither Pramac or Tech3 are interested in established riders and that only leaves the back of the grid satellite teams
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Fred Gassit
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by Fred Gassit »

Ducati were fairly routine with their Dovi contract statements during the whole process, as was he. Lorenzo is saying he wants to finish the project/continue with Ducati etc, but we haven't heard peep from Ducati on the matter.....only rumours.

Maybe I'm wrong, but one way I look at the comments from Lorenzo on the subject is that they seem to convey that Suzuki isn't something he's really keen on, despite outside speculation and commentary on how much more the Suzuki would suit him. It get's glossed over, but again it's worth remembering that Suzuki lose all their concessions next season because they are making podiums and points. Where is the Suzuki now, and where will it be without the benefits of concessions ?

This from Suzuki is what I find interesting. Sure, playing riders off against each other/rich pickings for Suzuki and the like.....but it could also mean that they really aren't interested in Lorenzo at all.

https://www.crash.net/motogp/news/89640 ... ir-rumours

Maybe , and I mean maybe, this is the reality for Lorenzo. If not Ducati, and not Suzuki, then where ? I don't think retirement is on his radar at all, but the ground (from the outside) seems to be constantly shifting underneath him. This silly season is the silliest in a long time, in regards to what are the normal games of contract negotiation.

Taking another angle from that article, suppose Puig wins, ditches Pedrosa and get Mir in.

Again I might (read as "probably am" ;) :lol: ) be wrong, but Brivio seems to refer more, or imply, that if they went the experienced rider route that they are thinking more of keeping Iannone than getting in Lorenzo or Pedrosa.


Crazy stuff. I can't remember a silly season like it.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by Mikesbytes »

From the comment about Iannone and other riders, there's at least 3 under consideration and Iannone is still on the shopping list.

Mir is keen to move to MotoGP next year so its a case of if you don't take him early then he will be with someone else in 2020 when he will possibly shine
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JanBros
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by JanBros »

I think Ducati are going to take their time to chose their second rider. They have all the cards at hand :

the longer they wait (tltw), the longer they can decide whether JL get's a grip on the Ducati or not.
tltw , the less opportunities there are for JL to go to, the less his paydemands will be
tltw, the more chance they have of analysing Miller, and if he keeps doing what he is doing I think it will be a no-brainer.
tltw, the more time Petrucci has to proof he is worthy, his performance is getting better and better.
taking Miller or Petrucci saves them a lot of money : a much smaller paycheck and no need to develop the Duc in a different way, as both are clearly closer to Dovi as what they can do with it.
Last edited by JanBros on Sun May 20, 2018 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vmax666
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by Vmax666 »

Listening to interviews today it seems ducati are only looking at Miller and petruchi
Mir has 3 option for next year in MotoGP
Suzuki can afford to sit back and have their pick of riders
Parmac looking to Miller

Although it’s hard to imagine but looks like Lorenzo may be looking at early retirement

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Mikesbytes
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by Mikesbytes »

What about Lorenzo going to MarcVDS on a Yamaha? No rumors, just a thought.
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speeddog
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by speeddog »

MarcVDS may be able to save the program this year, but it looks to be an unstable place right now, and IMO Lorenzo won't consider it just on that.
And he'd be getting satellite Yamahas.

My imagination does not stretch far enough for me to see Lorenzo on a non-factory ride.

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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by hdot »

Mikesbytes wrote:What about Lorenzo going to MarcVDS on a Yamaha? No rumors, just a thought.
The thought of a... 5x?... world champ scrambling back to a satellite ride seems crazy. I was going to point to Rossi coming back to Yamaha and getting the red carpet rolled out for him, but that was different in many ways.

Unfortunately going back to Yamaha seems impossible (and with where they are now I'm not sure he'd want to anyway); Ducati prob won't renew; Honda wants a "team player"; Suzuki seems uninterested... KTM needs a rider to develop the bike and not the other way round......................

Perhaps if Piaggio really throws some money and manpower behind it, Aprilia could be an option, but they need to figure out how to build engines instead of bombs.

The field is so stacked now there's just no room to move.

warthog1
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by warthog1 »

It does seem crazy.
Imo he is a better rider than the current 2 factory yam riders, as is Zarco quite possibly.
Yamaha have thrown their eggs in the wrong basket I reckon.

Fred Gassit
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by Fred Gassit »

Not really.

Rossi matched him (well actually outpointed him in the WC ) in his last season at Yamaha, which was also the first season of spec ECU's. That was about the time both Rossi and Lorenzo started to struggle with grip issues at certain circuits.

Since then it ( the Yamaha) has gotten worse every season, the reason for which is now pretty widely know. Carmello is about to fix that problem for them ( Yamaha). On average (2017 and 2018 combined) Zarco starts higher than he finishes. No slight on his ability obviously, but facts are facts. Rossi is far more consistent in where he qualifies and finishes on race day than any of his team mates from 2015 onwards. If he's not the rider of choice for some, I can understand that the fact he's 40 and still as fast as any top 5 rider must be really annoying to them. Vinales is right back in the hunt when conditions and the bike work for him, which is ironically a lot like Lorenzo.

Lorenzo can't adjust to/really struggles in varying conditions, whether they be bike or weather. He's said so himself. So far the only Ducati's to finish behind Jorge in 2018 are the two GP 16's and Bautista on the '17. If Bautista had stayed on more last season ( 7 dnf's vs 3 for Jorge), it would seem very probable that he would have , or very nearly, beaten Jorge in the WC. That's "if's" and "ands" though. Facts are only the GP 15's and 16"s finished lower than Jorge in '17. Ducati are trying everything in their power to give Lorenzo what he wants, or needs, to go fast. To date, none of it is helping him. Lightening starts in the last two races, but diminishing pace after 5 to 10 laps to the point where he's holding up those behind him. The last two outings can be put down to his affinity with the two circuits though. 3rd and 6th at both in '17, which is where he probably would have, and did, finish at them this season.

Now Ducati have to try and mitigate the design of their '18 fuel tank. It is a legitimate reason for fatigue causing degradation of pace, but surely this is something a rider of his calibre would have picked up on at some point during any of the testing he has done last year and this. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the problems the aesthetics of a motorcycle may cause to a rider are a whole lot easier to deduce than trying to figure out why one manufacturers black box is working better than the one you happen to be on.

To suggest he would fare better than Vinales, Zarco or Rossi on a Yamaha that is entirely at the mercy of circuit grip levels, ambient temperatures and which side of the bed the thing got out of is not rational or pragmatic.


My fear now is that he's really in a bad place for potential rides. Forget salaries, not many manufacturers, excluding Honda, have the funding or engineering departments like Ducati. Riding for Suzuki is a case of dealing with what they hand you at the start of the year, and nowhere near the level of ongoing testing and development going into the bike for next season.

Is the idea of Jorge at a satellite team crazy ? Yes it is.

When thinking of how Suzuki R&D works, or progresses, they're not that far in front of a really good satellite team. Tech 3 in blue, if you will.

To me, it's no wonder Jorge is talking about how much he would like to make the Ducati experience work.

To his credit, he's handling the pressure of his current situation like the world champ he is.

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JanBros
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by JanBros »

I think the Suzuki race-team itself wanted satelite bikes to speed up development. But it's looking more and more likely that Suzuki corporate managment hasn't changed and acts the same way as ten years ago. No satelite bikes, and probably not even money for a top profile rider. I serieously doubt JL going to them.
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warthog1
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by warthog1 »

Fred Gassit wrote:Not really.

Rossi matched him (well actually outpointed him in the WC ) in his last season at Yamaha, which was also the first season of spec ECU's. That was about the time both Rossi and Lorenzo started to struggle with grip issues at certain circuits.

Since then it ( the Yamaha) has gotten worse every season, the reason for which is now pretty widely know. Carmello is about to fix that problem for them ( Yamaha). On average (2017 and 2018 combined) Zarco starts higher than he finishes. No slight on his ability obviously, but facts are facts. Rossi is far more consistent in where he qualifies and finishes on race day than any of his team mates from 2015 onwards. If he's not the rider of choice for some, I can understand that the fact he's 40 and still as fast as any top 5 rider must be really annoying to them. Vinales is right back in the hunt when conditions and the bike work for him, which is ironically a lot like Lorenzo.

Lorenzo can't adjust to/really struggles in varying conditions, whether they be bike or weather. He's said so himself. So far the only Ducati's to finish behind Jorge in 2018 are the two GP 16's and Bautista on the '17. If Bautista had stayed on more last season ( 7 dnf's vs 3 for Jorge), it would seem very probable that he would have , or very nearly, beaten Jorge in the WC. That's "if's" and "ands" though. Facts are only the GP 15's and 16"s finished lower than Jorge in '17. Ducati are trying everything in their power to give Lorenzo what he wants, or needs, to go fast. To date, none of it is helping him. Lightening starts in the last two races, but diminishing pace after 5 to 10 laps to the point where he's holding up those behind him. The last two outings can be put down to his affinity with the two circuits though. 3rd and 6th at both in '17, which is where he probably would have, and did, finish at them this season.

Now Ducati have to try and mitigate the design of their '18 fuel tank. It is a legitimate reason for fatigue causing degradation of pace, but surely this is something a rider of his calibre would have picked up on at some point during any of the testing he has done last year and this. It is not beyond the realms of possibility that the problems the aesthetics of a motorcycle may cause to a rider are a whole lot easier to deduce than trying to figure out why one manufacturers black box is working better than the one you happen to be on.

To suggest he would fare better than Vinales, Zarco or Rossi on a Yamaha that is entirely at the mercy of circuit grip levels, ambient temperatures and which side of the bed the thing got out of is not rational or pragmatic.


My fear now is that he's really in a bad place for potential rides. Forget salaries, not many manufacturers, excluding Honda, have the funding or engineering departments like Ducati. Riding for Suzuki is a case of dealing with what they hand you at the start of the year, and nowhere near the level of ongoing testing and development going into the bike for next season.

Is the idea of Jorge at a satellite team crazy ? Yes it is.

When thinking of how Suzuki R&D works, or progresses, they're not that far in front of a really good satellite team. Tech 3 in blue, if you will.

To me, it's no wonder Jorge is talking about how much he would like to make the Ducati experience work.

To his credit, he's handling the pressure of his current situation like the world champ he is.
Here are their head to head stats as best I could find on a quick search.
https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport ... ea9a733320
Lorenzo has it, by a closer margin than I expected however.
Jorge adapted well enough to beat him to the title a couple of times, including 2015.
He hasn't adapted well to the Ducati. Neither did Rossi.

Lorenzo hasn't adapted to the michelin tyres as well as I expected. That blurs the line.
As you point out though, Rossi is 39. His best days are clearly behind him.
Wrong basket.

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Tourn46
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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by Tourn46 »

warthog1 wrote: Here are their head to head stats as best I could find on a quick search.
https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport ... ea9a733320
Lorenzo has it by a closer margin than I expected however.
He has more titles, Rossi hasn't won since 09.
Lorenzo hasn't adapted to the michelin tyres as well as I expected. That blurs the line.
As you point out though, Rossi is 39. His best days are clearly behind him.
Wrong basket.
I mean that's nice and all, but what are you trying to say? Punt Rossi out and get Lorenzo back? Lorenzo is 31, maybe his best days are behind him? Actually, Dovizioso is 32. He must be done too. Where shall we make this arbitrary line of when a rider loses their ability?

I don't understand the focus on Rossi... Rossi was 22 points behind Vinales and 34 ahead of Zarco last season having broken his leg. The Yamaha's are separated by 3 points at the moment, including Rossi having a nil point score through no fault of his own. He finished as championship runner up 3 times in a row recently, missing out on the title by 5 points in 2015 - a points total which often would win the title.

If you're talking about Rossi not being the best option for the future due to his age and inevitable retirement, that's a reasonable argument, not one everyone will necessarily agree with, but it has substance and logic... but you really can't use his results and speed as a reason because he's as good as any of the front runners (Marc probably being the exception).

Why isn't the discussion 'can Vinales live up to his promise'? If Rossi is no longer capable, then will Vinales ever be? For the record, I think Vinales is a great rider and that Yamaha's decision to keep him is unquestionable.

I still firmly believe the issue is with the bikes and not the personnel...

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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by Jagbruno »

"I still firmly believe the issue is with the bikes and not the personnel..."

And yet, once again, on essentially the same bike, Zarco was in front of both of them by a very substantial margin in qualifying (0,7 sec) as well as in the race until he crashed.

I still think Zarco missed an opportunity yesterday, he should have been more patient and wait for Lorenzo's inevitable melt-down. Rossi's ride was impeccable.

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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by warthog1 »

Tourn46 wrote:
warthog1 wrote: Here are their head to head stats as best I could find on a quick search.
https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport ... ea9a733320
Lorenzo has it by a closer margin than I expected however.
He has more titles, Rossi hasn't won since 09.
Lorenzo hasn't adapted to the michelin tyres as well as I expected. That blurs the line.
As you point out though, Rossi is 39. His best days are clearly behind him.
Wrong basket.
I mean that's nice and all, but what are you trying to say? Punt Rossi out and get Lorenzo back? Lorenzo is 31, maybe his best days are behind him? Actually, Dovizioso is 32. He must be done too. Where shall we make this arbitrary line of when a rider loses their ability?

I don't understand the focus on Rossi... Rossi was 22 points behind Vinales and 34 ahead of Zarco last season having broken his leg. The Yamaha's are separated by 3 points at the moment, including Rossi having a nil point score through no fault of his own. He finished as championship runner up 3 times in a row recently, missing out on the title by 5 points in 2015 - a points total which often would win the title.

If you're talking about Rossi not being the best option for the future due to his age and inevitable retirement, that's a reasonable argument, not one everyone will necessarily agree with, but it has substance and logic... but you really can't use his results and speed as a reason because he's as good as any of the front runners (Marc probably being the exception).

Why isn't the discussion 'can Vinales live up to his promise'? If Rossi is no longer capable, then will Vinales ever be? For the record, I think Vinales is a great rider and that Yamaha's decision to keep him is unquestionable.

I still firmly believe the issue is with the bikes and not the personnel...
I was pointing out the quality of Jorge with my initial post.
It is crazy that he may not get a factory seat next year.

You can say the issue lies with the bike rather than the personnel and it would make sense were it not for Zarco.
Yes there is an issue with the bikes but it is an issue that should also exist for the tech 3 bike. Less staff to fix it there also.
Vinales hasn't met expectations either and is going worse than VR.
VR is oneof the all time greats but his best days are behind him.
They don't appear to have a team mate who can provide future development direction either.
I'm sugesting they are going to change now but they shouldn't have let Zarco go.
He should have received more factory support.

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Re: Silly Season 2018

Post by Tourn46 »

Jagbruno wrote:"I still firmly believe the issue is with the bikes and not the personnel..."

And yet, once again, on essentially the same bike, Zarco was in front of both of them by a very substantial margin in qualifying (0,7 sec) as well as in the race until he crashed.

I still think Zarco missed an opportunity yesterday, he should have been more patient and wait for Lorenzo's inevitable melt-down. Rossi's ride was impeccable.
If Zarco being in front of Rossi by less than a second despite starting 8 places in front of him is a "substantial margin" on the lap he crashed, then the Zarco hype is literally turning into madness :|

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