Aero

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Mikesbytes
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Aero

Post by Mikesbytes »

We have posted bits and pieces in various threads about the aero for this year but the story isn't done and dusted.

I'll start with the 2017 Ducati fairing. With the rules stating you can use the 2016 fairing minus the wings it seemed that homogenisation for what people have being descirbing as the standard fairing was already done, but for Ducati that wasn't the case as the GP16 fairing wasn't compatible with the GP17 and instead of submitting a fairing with wings they submitted a GP17 'standard' fairing, leaving the hammerhead fairing out of it.

So my question is, what is different between the GP16 and the GP17 that requires a new fairing and was it worth making that difference at the cost of not been able to submit a second fairing
Last edited by Mikesbytes on Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AJracing
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by AJracing »

Just took a quick look at the differences (google images).
The 2017 fairing seems to be a bit more angled than the 2016. (the windshield/the arc above the wheel (front of fairings).
The arc of the fairing in the front is less in 2017 and makes the bike look more upright. (cm's)

I'm no aero expert :mrgreen: but it seems like they made a change that had the least amount of impact on the bike with the new fairing.
Data relativity to others on gp16 gp17? possibly to maintain some sort of relation to past data?

Was it worth it? Not sure this question can be answered just now after the first race..

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Mikesbytes
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Mikesbytes »

Thanks AJ, that identifies that the shape of the fairing is different between the 17 and 16 models.

The more I think about it, the more the comment that the 16 fairing was incompatible with the 17 doesn't make sense. I'm getting the feeling that the hammerhead fairing has been rejected by the riders and this left them with no aero solution so they presented an updated 'standard' fairing. Then they led the public astray, more so to misinform their competitors
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Dayle88
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Dayle88 »

Wouldn't it just be they can have one 'normal' fairing and one aerodynamic 'solution'? A slightly different standard non-winged fairing can be changed as much as they want, surely?

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JanBros
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by JanBros »

Dayle88 wrote:Wouldn't it just be they can have one 'normal' fairing and one aerodynamic 'solution'? A slightly different standard non-winged fairing can be changed as much as they want, surely?
yes and nope

they can have 2 fairings per year : one they start with and one updated
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Mikesbytes
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Mikesbytes »

Isn't it the 2016 fairing plus the one they got Homoglated before the first race then one during the season that replaces one of them, so there's a max of 2 at any point
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Kropotkin »

Mikesbytes wrote:Isn't it the 2016 fairing plus the one they got Homoglated before the first race then one during the season that replaces one of them, so there's a max of 2 at any point
Correct.
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oldboyonrgv
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by oldboyonrgv »

So Ducati are boxing clever, they have the 2016 one in the bag, they still have two in their pocket.

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speeddog
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by speeddog »

As I understand it, Ducati has lost an opportunity.

2016 fairings without winglets were grandfathered in as a legal version, and manufacturers were allowed to homologate 2 more fairings this year.

But 2016 Ducati fairing does not fit the 2017 bike, so they had to spend one homologation on the naked 2017 fairing.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Mikesbytes »

Why the didn't do a 2017 fairing with some winglets covered over (like Suzuki and Honda) for the first 2017 fairing beats me as they can simply not bolt them on and they their 2017 fairing. Also as the wing is actually the strut then its shape can be changed at will
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Mikesbytes
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Mikesbytes »

In a continuation of how ridiculous the winglet rules have been, KTM has done this

https://twitter.com/BorjaGonzalezG/stat ... 28/photo/1
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Tourn46
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Tourn46 »

Don't see how that KTM one is allowed, looks just like winglets.

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JanBros
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by JanBros »

Tourn46 wrote:Don't see how that KTM one is allowed, looks just like winglets.
look at Scott jones' picture on the front page : in no way it looks like a wiglet nor is it sharp and sticking out. it has the shape of a normal fairing, just that it is a bit flatter at the front and less rounded on the side.
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Japhrodisiac
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Japhrodisiac »

I never understood why they never tried an angled front fairing, so the whole front number plate surface creates downforce. Another idea, perhaps because it creates a cooling issue is to create downforce with the shape of the front fender

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Mikesbytes
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Mikesbytes »

RIP Hammerhead. Official reason for dropping it is that it reduced top speed too much.

So the question is what will they end up doing and I'm betting that they do what some others have done, which is a cover with a strut and as we know that strut can be replaced at will and therefor the aero can be changed at will
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Tourn46
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Tourn46 »

Mikesbytes wrote:RIP Hammerhead. Official reason for dropping it is that it reduced top speed too much.

So the question is what will they end up doing and I'm betting that they do what some others have done, which is a cover with a strut and as we know that strut can be replaced at will and therefor the aero can be changed at will
Wonder if they will keep the 'salad box' if the space isn't required anymore at the front.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Mikesbytes »

I thought this question too. The difference will be a shift in where the weight is and while I know its not a lot of weight, even a small amount of weight shift can change things. Having said that I wouldn't be surprised that one of them ends up in a situation where the electronics are damaged due to their position meaning the rider can't continue as in the case of being rear ended or remount in the case of a crash and then they will put it back at the front.

Another thing could be that with the electronics away from the front, it gives them more scope to re-position the fuel or something else
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Mikesbytes
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Mikesbytes »

Has there been a lack of use of aero components this year so far or am I simply not noticing? Yes I know that Ducati doesn't have something approved but all the others do
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speeddog
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by speeddog »

IIRC, Suzuki, Aprilia and Yamaha have fitted them sporadically, not sure if any have been used in a race.

Seems that the rules constraints on the configuration have compromised their effectiveness to such an extent that they're not useful.

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yamfan
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by yamfan »

Think up to yet the tracks have mostly featured long straights. As the current aero designs are restricting top speeds, teams are choosing not to use them. Yamaha at Mugello chose to use the broader fairing but had no aero creating struts inside, maybe this was to aid cooling and still keep top speed?
When the teams get to the more traditional European tracks with the short straights, the aero will be utilised much more IMO.

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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by kenup283 »

to be effective for accerlation they have to make more down force considerably than drag they produce. Else the drag just adds to the overturning lifting the front wheel, a less efficient airfoil as the rules now put you in can instead or making it better make it worse for wheelies.

I think we've had a few spots where the wings could have helped for corner entry stability, lemans come to mind with high speed woobbles at turn in and who could forget Mugello which must have been hair raising for Ducati riders coming down the front straight and over the crest lap after lap to be met with massive head shake each time. Philip Island comes to mind as another where areo for stability may do some good even if accelaration would not be necassary.

On the yamaha Ive wondered if the faring itself is actually the airfoil. Meaning that when upright it does nothing but when leaned over the outer fairing pushes down, and the inner one is negated by the riders leg blocking the wake behind it, hence making a downward force in a turn rather than an outward force in the turns.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Mikesbytes »

kenup283 wrote:On the yamaha Ive wondered if the faring itself is actually the airfoil. Meaning that when upright it does nothing but when leaned over the outer fairing pushes down, and the inner one is negated by the riders leg blocking the wake behind it, hence making a downward force in a turn rather than an outward force in the turns.
Interesting concept and it would depend on 2 things;
1. As you said the riders leg interferes with the side that has the wrong aerofoil for that corner
2. That the rider doesn't interfere with the side that has the correct aerofoil

Image

^^the aerofoil works by reducing he pressure against a surface. Is this what we see on the Yamaha fairing? vv

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Mikesbytes
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Mikesbytes »

So one of the cards has been played in the aero game, that been an aero package tested by Crutchlow. The article talks about using an homologation and its probably correct but I'm wondering if its the one submitted at the beginning of the year with mods to the bolt on bits. Anyway its unlikely to be used in the race as it would require a bunch of adjustments to the bike to make it work and time on the track is a premium

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2017/0 ... _fast.html

Any if anyone spots some pics, then drop them here

Edit: the answer to my questions is in an article on crash.net http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/260624 ... iring.html
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Mikesbytes
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Mikesbytes »

So Ducati have finally decided to release an aero fairing, they have shifted from the Hammer Head to the Manta Ray.

Looking at the photo I'm getting the impression that they haven't gone for a bolt on, ie its integrated, which means they can't remove it and they can't change the aero by changing the struts.

Photo as posted on Motomatters
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Mikesbytes
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Re: 2017 Aero

Post by Mikesbytes »

The fairing that Yamaha tested on Monday has been rejected by Rossi. Looking at the picture it appears to be a simple indent

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