Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

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Mikesbytes
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Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by Mikesbytes »

Looking at the data it seems too early to predict. His results don't look that much different to Ago or Rossi except that he has done them at a younger age.

My guess at this stage of his career is yes, if he can avoid a significant injury and to that I've included Doohan plus Rainey who's careers were both ended by injury at a time when they seemed to be invincible.

His younger age is what gives him the potential edge over Ago and Rossi. We can also see from Doohan that the age cap for winning a championship is older than what we have experienced in the 21st century.

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hdot
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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by hdot »

Not if Maverick has anything to say about it.

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JanBros
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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by JanBros »

I certainly hope not :oops:
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WayneG
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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by WayneG »

Rossi, Maequez, Vinales or somebody else may well one day overtake Agostini as the greatest rider "to date". The greatest rider of "all time" can never be determined until bikes are no longer raced and likely hasn't been born yet.
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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by atropos »

WayneG wrote:Rossi, Maequez, Vinales or somebody else may well one day overtake Agostini as the greatest rider "to date". The greatest rider of "all time" can never be determined until bikes are no longer raced and likely hasn't been born yet.
I concur 100%.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by Mikesbytes »

WayneG wrote:Rossi, Maequez, Vinales or somebody else may well one day overtake Agostini as the greatest rider "to date". The greatest rider of "all time" can never be determined until bikes are no longer raced and likely hasn't been born yet.
LOL

BTW Wayne, thought you were one year older and rather than being a coastie you were in Spain :)
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WayneG
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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by WayneG »

Mikesbytes wrote:BTW Wayne, thought you were one year older and rather than being a coastie you were in Spain :)
No I'm not him but my claim to fame is that I once raced against him on minibikes; or more accurately I was on the same track as him at the same time. :D
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Dayle88
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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by Dayle88 »

hdot wrote:Not if Maverick has anything to say about it.
Come on, Maverick hasn't proven himself yet. Let's be serious and at least wait a year before the ridiculous claims.

Whether Marquez passes Rossi's stats are up in the air and obviously time will tell. I hope I'm wrong but I think Marquez' body will give up before his spirit does, regular shoulder dislocations are already worrying. I looked at the stats a little while ago and other than Marquez doing it a year (bit more?) younger his number of wins have started to slow down season by season compared to Rossi at the same point in their careers.

I guess it's something that will be talked about a lot in a few years time if Marquez continues as he has so far. Rossi vs Agostini is the first thing to be addressed. It's very, very unlikely Rossi will match Ago's number of titles but he can beat him in wins. If he gets the tenth title he will officially be the greatest premier class rider ever with the same amount of titles but more wins already in the class than Agostini.

I think of Rossi as the greatest of all time in the same way as Ali. It's so much more than just statistics, it's the achievements and the importance and the style that they were achieved with it's just that Rossi has the numbers too.

Best ever will only be a personal choice from a handful of riders who qualify anyway and Marquez has already achieved enough to be considered one of the all time greats with a rookie title and his 2014 season, that's the important thing.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by Mikesbytes »

WayneG wrote:
Mikesbytes wrote:BTW Wayne, thought you were one year older and rather than being a coastie you were in Spain :)
No I'm not him but my claim to fame is that I once raced against him on minibikes; or more accurately I was on the same track as him at the same time. :D
That beats my claim to fame... I once had coffee in the same coffee shop as Barry Sheene. When he was living in Brissie

My guestimate is that Marquez will finish like Doohan, cut short by an injury. Marquez falls off way too often, which admittedly is in free practice but its still a fall.
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hdot
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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by hdot »

Dayle88 wrote:
hdot wrote:Not if Maverick has anything to say about it.
Come on, Maverick hasn't proven himself yet. Let's be serious and at least wait a year before the ridiculous claims.
I don't see what's ridiculous about that post. Nothing was claimed- notice the "if". But in testing anyway Maverick has been blisteringly fast, enough so that Marquez himself has tried to scope him out to see his speed up close. If Marquez catching a tow off Maverick isn't an endorsement of the threat Maverick poses this season what is?

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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by CLX »

He would still need to do an absurd ammount of winning, which is entirely possible, but I don't expect him to reach some all time records. I don't think he'll ever have as favourable circumstances - in regards to technical advantages or weaker grids - as other greats had.

Last but not least, he would have to ditch Honda sooner or later and win for someone else.

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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by JanBros »

he doesn't have the shoulders to stay in the game for as long as needed while being as competitive as he is now, to have a shot at it.

there is no cure for dislocating shoulders, only temporarly fixes. and each time it happens, it get's worse.
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Dayle88
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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by Dayle88 »

hdot wrote:
Dayle88 wrote:
hdot wrote:Not if Maverick has anything to say about it.
Come on, Maverick hasn't proven himself yet. Let's be serious and at least wait a year before the ridiculous claims.
I don't see what's ridiculous about that post. Nothing was claimed- notice the "if". But in testing anyway Maverick has been blisteringly fast, enough so that Marquez himself has tried to scope him out to see his speed up close. If Marquez catching a tow off Maverick isn't an endorsement of the threat Maverick poses this season what is?
It's ridiculous because you are claiming a one time MotoGP winner is a serious threat to Marquez hitting more records after a couple of impressive tests. If Vinales wins a bunch of races and wins the title this year then it will no longer be ridiculous. I didn't mean it as an insult, just trying to apply some common sense :twisted:

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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by kenup283 »

All it takes is some pain medicine or muscle relief rub on that shoulder to ping back an adverse finding on a doping test for his career to be over....

The minimum is immediate suspension and a four year ban. If he's lucky and can show he had no personal fault like his trainer gave him something without his knowledge then he might be able to get it down to a two year ban..

My only point is I think it's just as likely for a riders career to end from a WADA case these days as it is a career ending crash.

Here's a summary of how the FIM lot did last year, http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/down ... o_cache/1/

The frequency of hits has been one every couple years recently and they got another one this past year.

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Mikesbytes
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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by Mikesbytes »

Hadn't though specifically about the dislocating shoulder, I've been thinking generically about the number of crashes. More crashes = more chance of a career ending injury. One of the feathers in Rossi's long worn cap is that he has had a low number of crashes over his career. Anyway back to the dislocated shoulder, isn't a case of simply building the muscles around the rotator cuff?

With Vinales I guess we won't know the long term threat to Marquez until mid 2018. A scenario may be that Marquez and Vinales go neck and neck to the end of 2017 with the championship decided in the second to last race. 2018 and Vinales goes even better, by mid year sort of missing a bunch of races he's the sure favourite. Then we can say that Vinales will limit Marquez's potential GOAT. If we find that in 2017 that he's fighting Rossi for Bridesmaid, then we may need to wait for the next superstar to take Marquez on and that may take sufficiently long enough to put Marquez in GOAT territory
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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Mikesbytes wrote:Hadn't though specifically about the dislocating shoulder, I've been thinking generically about the number of crashes. More crashes = more chance of a career ending injury. One of the feathers in Rossi's long worn cap is that he has had a low number of crashes over his career. Anyway back to the dislocated shoulder, isn't a case of simply building the muscles around the rotator cuff?
tendon damage (stretch) becomes a problem after one or two dislocations, the only cure is an op to shorten the tendon a particularly painful and troublesome op which takes ages to recover from. Marquez's left should has been dislocated on quite a few occasions so he must be at the point that he needs that op, perhaps at the end of this season (too late to get it done now) secondary injury is the build up of scar tissue in the cuff which once again is debilitating (ask Nikky Hayden) and again involves an op to dislocate the joint and clean out the cuff, I don't think Marquez suffers from this one though as once he has popped it back in he recons its fine.

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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

In terms of the most successful rider of all time in terms of raw numbers of wins and WCs Marc has a very strong possibility of doing that. He has some advantage over his forebears in that the seasons have more races, he will ride in all of them, and the sides of the track aren't lined with trees or with crash barriers made of old Lancaster bomber tyres, so his career is likely to be longer. That being said he rolls the dice more than most, and seems to have almost no fear whatsoever of his own mortality, so it's possible that eventually he will sustain an injury that halts his progress.

More generally though I dislike the whole 'GOAT' discussion. It's essentially meaningless, you can't say one champion from one age is subjectively better than one from any other. The most you can do is trounce the opposition available to you at that time, which all of the 'greats' (that includes Marquez) have done at one time or another.

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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by Phillip Ireland »

MiniNinjaMk5 wrote: I dislike the whole 'GOAT' discussion. It's essentially meaningless, you can't say one champion from one age is subjectively better than one from any other. The most you can do is trounce the opposition available to you at that time, which all of the 'greats' (that includes Marquez) have done at one time or another.



THANK YOU Mini :D now if you wouldn't mind posting this on nearly every online forum and fb page, it would save me a hell of a lot of cursing and eye-rolling ! You're dead right, and only contemporaries can be compared.
Perhaps Krop could decree MotoMatters a GOAT-free zone.... :lol:

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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by atropos »

Phillip Ireland wrote:
MiniNinjaMk5 wrote: I dislike the whole 'GOAT' discussion. It's essentially meaningless, you can't say one champion from one age is subjectively better than one from any other. The most you can do is trounce the opposition available to you at that time, which all of the 'greats' (that includes Marquez) have done at one time or another.



THANK YOU Mini :D now if you wouldn't mind posting this on nearly every online forum and fb page, it would save me a hell of a lot of cursing and eye-rolling ! You're dead right, and only contemporaries can be compared.
Perhaps Krop could decree MotoMatters a GOAT-free zone.... :lol:
I'll vote for that! :lol:

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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by kenup283 »

I think we collective share the same view there. Every now and then and we get this toipic and everyine is good at keeping it in check. Here at least Mike made a good stab at some value adding information upfront, only comment could be the premise and title should have been earliest to success ie, quickest ascent rate, youngest age, or highest win percentage based on what the chart looks to be going for, but then there he left out some obvious candidates and it'll still be all apples and oranges but we couod at least avoid the farm animal comparisons...but oh well, still was an intersting chart to take away for what it is.

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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by Mikesbytes »

It's been an interesting discussion and we have been good at giving different views, different perspectives without beating each other up.

Who do you think I should of added to the original chart? which is Ago vs Rossi vs Marquez + Doohan and Rainey for the injury discussion
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mick_70
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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by mick_70 »

I find this a strange question really he has won all his moto gp titles on the four strokes as rossi won his on the 2 strokes which in my opinion were harder to ride could you really see him been able to handle a stroker against the likes of doohan gardner rainey schwantz. Also in my opinion you missed lawson as a alltime great.

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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by Tourn46 »

What I find even stranger is the insistence that modern riders couldn't handle 500cc 2 stroke bikes.

I have no doubt that someone with the feel of Jorge would be fantastic, someone with the balls of Marc would be fantastic, Rossi was 500cc champion.

If people could ride them back in 1995, people could ride them now.

Nostalgia is fine, but it clouds the mind.

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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by Japhrodisiac »

The mark of a great rider is that they can win on any type of machinery, and Marc has won on 125cc, moto2, motogp, minibikes of some sort, and faired extremely well against pro dirt trackers every time out. There is nothing to suggest that he couldn't handle a 500 2 stroke, though his aggressive style does suggest he may highside more than others

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Re: Will Marquez become the greatest racer of all Time?

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

Tourn46 wrote:What I find even stranger is the insistence that modern riders couldn't handle 500cc 2 stroke bikes.

I have no doubt that someone with the feel of Jorge would be fantastic, someone with the balls of Marc would be fantastic, Rossi was 500cc champion.

If people could ride them back in 1995, people could ride them now.

Nostalgia is fine, but it clouds the mind.
This is a really interesting question. I think in some ways the riders we have now are a product of the current generation of bikes and the way they need to be ridden, also the implicit dangers faced by the tracks and nature of the bikes. Someone like Marc or Cal can throw caution to the wind, ride like they are playing a Playstation game (and have 4-5 crashes in a day) because the safety levels of the bikes and tracks allow them to do so. Imagine this approach when racing at Imatra in Finland in the 60s, where the course ran over a railway track and through a graveyard, or even the 500 machines or up until the mid 90s? You wouldn't have had a very long career. So of course, the best riders wouldn't have ridden like that.. which brings us round full circle.

I think the cream of the crop will get the most out of the bikes, have that x-ability that allows them to go fast, whether it was on a Manx Norton or an RCV211. Which is kind of why these discussions are ultimately futile, you can't objectively say someone is the 'greatest of all time' because every great rider of each generation has had different challenges in a different race environment. You can perhaps say the "most successful of all time', but even that is skewed towards modern riders due to the number of races on the calendar, and the length of modern riders careers being so much longer.

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