Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class
kenup283
Posts: 1315
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:40 am

Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by kenup283 »

Latest set of changes have now been written into the rules released for July.

Notably we see the update on Tire Pressure sensors (pg. 73) and Wings (pg. 133)

http://www.fim-live.com/en/library/down ... o_cache/1/


Excerpts from each below:


On tire sensors

Such measurement will normally be taken using a hand-held RF receiver so only tyre data is taken. In exceptional circumstances (eg. following an incident or safety concern) the Technical Director may request the logged tyre data from the ECU/ datalogger, and teams must comply with such requests.


In otherwords the in-use tire pressure data is considered private belonging to the teams and is not monitored by officials or Michelin unless in event of failure.

So as an enforcement and development tool it is the same as before but just a fancier way to check the tire pressure in the pits.

On that basis I would like to see the minimum tire pressure restrictions be lifted so riders and teams can get back to explroing what works for them best. Specially here Pedrosa who has been most effected by the post tire issue usage guidance.


On wings

It is not permitted to add any device or shape to the fairing or bodywork that is not integrated in the body streamlining (eg. wings, fins, bulges, etc.), that may provide an aerodynamic effect (eg. providing downforce, disrupting aerodynamic wake, etc.).
The Technical Director will be the sole judge of whether a device or fairing design falls into the above definition.



Although not an easy task to define, such a broad definition could even be interpreted to not allow the rearward cameras mounted on the tail of the bike as they protrude and produce an aerodynamic wake.

However what is iteresting is that within such a broad definition the rule is very specific that such a shape cannot be added to just the bodywork or fairing.

There is nothing saying you cannot mount them from the fork tubes or chassis for instance.

How funny would it be if Gigi had the summer intern work on a tri-decker set of wings even more hideous than anything seen to date, then bolted them off the forks and showed up at the post race test in Valencia and said is this what you had in mind.

User avatar
speeddog
Posts: 745
Joined: Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:43 pm
Location: The hotness of SoCal Inland Valley

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by speeddog »

Wow, that's a very poorly written rule regarding 'wings'.

"That's not a wing, it's a crash bung. See, it's attached to the chassis."

That's not a wing, that's a radiator."

That's an air intake runner/plenum that transects that giant duct through the fairing."

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, . . . . ." Justice Potter Stewart - Jacobellis v. Ohio 1964

hdot
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by hdot »

Yep, they definitely just opened a rift in the semantics-time continuum with that one.

Off the top of my head, seems the simplest way for them to ban winglets would be to mandate a maximum cross-sectional width of the fairing ahead of the rider. I figure a fairing is like 6mm thick max.... so 100mm wide winglets would not work.

User avatar
JanBros
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:57 pm
Location: The land of Francorchamps

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by JanBros »

and I believe the rule is perfect (whith the exception of the word "fairing/bodywork, should have simply been "bike").
you can not specify in rules what a winglet or a spoiler is and what isn't. Sometimes one feels that the rules are broken, but you cant proof it.
Like it is written now, it's up to the gut feeling of the gouverning body. simple and imediatly blocks smartasses from exploiting the boundaries of rules.
Bi-stroker Parallelus Bi-cylindricus

kenup283
Posts: 1315
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:40 am

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by kenup283 »

The prior rule was a permissive statement and stated

Wings may be fitted provided they are an integral part of the fairing or seat and do not exceed the width of the fairing or seat or the height of the handlebars


The new rule changed from a permissive statement to an exclusive one without updating the location.

As such it would now allow aerodynamic devices only where they were previously not allowed and without limit to width other than the lean angle needed for the bike.

So it does more harm than good and while the fix is simple it is a big miss to not recognize this and only opens more doors than previously possible as it stands now.

User avatar
Tourn46
Posts: 3399
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Location: UK

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by Tourn46 »

I do wonder how integral the use of winglets are to the Ducati... from reading the comments from Tardozzi/Gig, it sounds like the bikes are designed to be used with winglets. It sounds like they are 'part' of the package.

How much of a backwards step is this for Ducati in particular?

We know Yamaha can bolt their wings on and off (from the outside it doesn't look like they rely on them), Honda and Suzuki have appeared to have very small wings at most.

I'm glad they are being banned because they are downright hideous... and also Honda will win that battle eventually with their resources, so binning them now is the right thing to do for me.

Thornado
Posts: 128
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 11:19 pm
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by Thornado »

I'm very disappointed that the wings have been banned. MotoGP has already been neutered technically with no engine upgrades, stock electronics, etc. At least the wings were interesting and you could actually see them being developed, as opposed to programming changes.

If they wanted to save money get rid of the stupid ban on dual clutches.

User avatar
CLX
Posts: 3422
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 7:58 pm
Location: Bogotá

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by CLX »

I must disagree. Wings and turbulence are the devil and racing's natural enemy, and once people get used to it, they NEVER go away. Look at F1.

I'd sacrifice them and their development possibilities a thousand times before worrying if MotoGP was being neutered.

-----
Everything we consider fiction is reality somewhere else. This is somewhere's fiction.

User avatar
JanBros
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:57 pm
Location: The land of Francorchamps

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by JanBros »

CLX wrote:I must disagree. Wings and turbulence are the devil and racing's natural enemy, and once people get used to it, they NEVER go away. Look at F1.

I'd sacrifice them and their development possibilities a thousand times before worrying if MotoGP was being neutered.
yep.
MotoGP is about racing motorcycles, not about engineers in windtunnels showing of their accomplishments on a racetrack in a parade (again, look at F1).

for me they can ditch the whole fairing to, so I can see what it is all about (the engine) :P
Bi-stroker Parallelus Bi-cylindricus

kenup283
Posts: 1315
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:40 am

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by kenup283 »

As for the impact on Ducati, my opinion is it won't be that noticeable. I think rather than improve they will stay about where they are on pace. They still have the grip and power to be good in accel but need to address the root cause of cornering. Where it might have been a factor is if they may have been seeking some set up compromises using the wings to offset negatives on changes made to improve cornering.

As for the technical aspects there was some room to progress this but likely not very far before diminishing returns. It's a lot different than car racing.

That said in regard with the observations about F1 I see it as the opposite.

What we see now and which is widly criticized is more a return to the old days when the engine package made the biggest difference.

What aerodynamics allowed in the past several decades was for independent teams to find ways to beat the factories who they leased the engines from.

Now it is back to a manufacture game as the aero and chassis rules have been clamped down significantly and meanwhile the development has shifted back to the power units where all the gains are to be made.

Here Ducati was working in a direction that at least in their minds was worth pursuing. Beolw are a couple good papers to look into about where this was going.

The first link has some interesting ideas about drag influencing yaw into turns.

http://papers.sae.org/2015-01-0097/

The second is very detailed and good read at quantifying the reductions of lean angle and cornering forces.

https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/d ... TEXT01.pdf

User avatar
JanBros
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:57 pm
Location: The land of Francorchamps

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by JanBros »

it's not the engine.
Any manufacturer can make a good powerful reliable engine. Some can do it in a short time period, others take longer. it depends on how much money they can spend.
electronics is (was) where the most money is going to. Previously on developing them, now it's more about getting the best and most people to work on them to make the difference. Look at satelite teams : 1 guy for 2 riders vs 2 (or more) per rder for manufacturers (and I'm pretty sure those guys make the most money).

a good chassis is on the other hand, is much more dificult. Ask ducati or Honda. suzuki has a good one aparently, but that might all change once they get to the engine-power levels of the other manu's.

just my humble opinion ;)
Bi-stroker Parallelus Bi-cylindricus

kenup283
Posts: 1315
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:40 am

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by kenup283 »

Janbros I was speaking about F1 regarding power units... In bikes I do not believe we can really speak separatly about the engine from the chassis... So for a different reason it becomes the same result. Independent teams have a tougher task and need to improve what has been given them to be competive. If this is not allowed and everything is locked down then they cannot add value to make it any better and have no areas to out design the manufactures even if they had the money to do so.

As for electrics being the biggest area for bikes this is true but I see it only because the way the fueling and power delivery is controlled as being more important to getting the most out of the bike.

Said another way the first persons you want in the pit box to hear what the rider has to say is going to be whoever is in charge of the fueling / power delivery. In the older days it would have been the carburetor guy now it is the electrical guy.. but they are doing the same thing fundamentally.

User avatar
ieism
Posts: 447
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:35 pm
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by ieism »

It will be hard to stop the race for aerodynamic advantage and downforce now with any rule. How do you judge what is and what isn't a wing or advantage. There have been wings on racebikes for a long time (Suzuki RG500, BMW R100RS), and all manufacturers take aerodynamics into account when designing their bikes and fairings. How are you going to regulate that?

I don't share the thought that Motogp could turn into F1 if we let them do whatever they want. If you'd put a huge front wing on a racebike, it would only push the bike wide at highspeed corners because the bike is tilted. There is a limit to how efffecive this is. On a car it pushes down because the car stays level.

What this regulation really misses is the fact that hanging a wing from the riders body is potentially far more effective than on the bike. You can move the wing behind the fairing on the straights reducing drag, and with the rider hanging to the inside of a corner off the bike there is plenty oppurtunity to create downforce in exactly the spot you'd want. Think what would happen if you'd mount a flat board to the thigh of a rider. On the straight there is no extra drag. In the corners you can create extra downforce on the inside of the corner making the tire stick and pulling you to the apex more than a fixed wing does (if it doesn't rip your leg off of course ). Also, a fixed wing will be less effective on the inside because the riders body is directly behind it.
"I get it, you're favorite rider is better than mine. Just stop trying to convince me to join your fanclub ok?"

User avatar
Fingernails
Posts: 1546
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:41 pm

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by Fingernails »

JanBros wrote: for me they can ditch the whole fairing to, so I can see what it is all about (the engine) :P
Fairings are the best place to put branding/advertising. If someone found a way to make a bike faster without the fairing, they'd probably bring in a rule specifying that the bikes have to have fairings. Isn't there some rule in F1 about the engine cover for this reason?

User avatar
SirSinCity
Posts: 267
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:46 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by SirSinCity »

I predict strakes will next show up integrated into the top of the mud guard, high enough off the ground so as not to scrape under full lean.

kenup283
Posts: 1315
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:40 am

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by kenup283 »

Interesting article on team boss opinions from Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Ducati.

Not sure i really buy Hondas insane cost argument.

http://m.crash.net/motogp/news/232886/1 ... ustry.html

hdot
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by hdot »

Lol @ Honda complaining about cost, with their million dollar glass shard gearbox and proprietary software. I love Honda but they are reaping what they sowed.

User avatar
Tourn46
Posts: 3399
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Location: UK

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by Tourn46 »

I might be alone in this...

But I don't care for the reasons, I'm just glad they're banned... I just really, really didn't like seeing these on motorcycles.

It would be a travesty if we headed down a path that ultimately lead to us losing close quarter combat because the airflow gets too disturbed, etc. It may be baseless, but I genuinely feared that this would end up being a very negative prospect for the spectacle.

:?

User avatar
SirSinCity
Posts: 267
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:46 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by SirSinCity »

Tourn46 wrote:I might be alone in this...

But I don't care for the reasons, I'm just glad they're banned... I just really, really didn't like seeing these on motorcycles.

It would be a travesty if we headed down a path that ultimately lead to us losing close quarter combat because the airflow gets too disturbed, etc. It may be baseless, but I genuinely feared that this would end up being a very negative prospect for the spectacle.

:?
Everybody has wings and this season has been better in terms of variety of winners than any in the past 20 years (without checking the record books) There has been close racing and battles at every track. I don't see any evidence for racing becoming worse other than looking at F1 and assuming the same will happen.

hdot
Posts: 1162
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:49 pm

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by hdot »

I think it's a bit of a stretch to point to wings as the equalizer here in the face of all the other change and the abundance of alien grade talent. Ducati will manage. They were competitive and won races without wings before and are really the only folks besides Aprilia heavily invested in aero.

User avatar
SirSinCity
Posts: 267
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:46 pm
Location: Arizona

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by SirSinCity »

hdot wrote:I think it's a bit of a stretch to point to wings as the equalizer here in the face of all the other change and the abundance of alien grade talent. Ducati will manage. They were competitive and won races without wings before and are really the only folks besides Aprilia heavily invested in aero.
I have not stated or suggested any such thing about there being any equalizers. What I have written is that everybody has wings and the racing has not been negatively affected. In the beginning of the season I recall Honda riders complaining about the Ducati wakes causing them to not be able to pull off draft moves. I haven't seen those fears and concerns surface either in the press or on track since then. Did you see Marquez pole lap?

kenup283
Posts: 1315
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:40 am

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by kenup283 »

From Marquez qualifying lap I noticed his Honda grew a mustache.

It was a bit more angled downwards and swept back than others which I think is the right idea.

Regarding number of winners, we are now at 6 differnt riders.

I had made a chart before which you can see onky 7 other seasons equalling that figure. Most in the 90's with a couple one offs in '78 and '06 and now '16.


Image

User avatar
Mikesbytes
Posts: 2502
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2016 10:04 am

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by Mikesbytes »

kenup283 wrote:I had made a chart before which you can see onky 7 other seasons equalling that figure. Most in the 90's with a couple one offs in '78 and '06 and now '16.


Image
Thanks Kenup, that's really interesting. It's showing that 4 riders winning in a season is the norm. This year we have 5 already and if Pedrosa can win one that will make it 6
My signature isn't particularly interesting

User avatar
Tourn46
Posts: 3399
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Location: UK

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by Tourn46 »

Mikesbytes wrote:
Thanks Kenup, that's really interesting. It's showing that 4 riders winning in a season is the norm. This year we have 5 already and if Pedrosa can win one that will make it 6
6... Rossi, Jorge, Marc, Miller, Iannone, Crutchlow.

User avatar
Fingernails
Posts: 1546
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:41 pm

Re: Latest Rules Posted - Tire Sensors and Wings

Post by Fingernails »

Mikesbytes wrote: Thanks Kenup, that's really interesting. It's showing that 4 riders winning in a season is the norm. This year we have 5 already and if Pedrosa can win one that will make it 6
I'm trying to remember the last time I saw Pedrosa challenging for a race win. He was scoring 3rds and 4ths regularly earlier on in the season, but recently hasn't been anywhere near the podium. Having said that, his first win last year was in Japan. There's still time for a bit of a comeback.

Post Reply