MotoGP 2015, Misano

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class
S4L
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by S4L »

I think there is a far less insidious reason for Rossi staying out too long. If anyone noticed on the first pit, the three of them were extremely close together, yet by the time they exited the pits, Rossi had lost 3.5 seconds on Marquez and Lorenzo. I think Rossi ignored the pitboard and kept looking behind him in order to gauge how much of a gap he had on Lorenzo so that when he pitted, he would stay in the lead. I think Rossi knew that if Lorenzo got the jump on him in the pits, whoever took the lead exiting would probably keep the lead. I don't think either of them seen much passing with that narrow dry line.

In short, if Rossi would have pitted when his team told him to, yes he may have stayed on the podium, but there was a great chance that would have been a spot behind Lorenzo simply due to the bike swap. I don't know if anyone noticed, but Lorenzo was like a rabbit during the swap, if I'm remembering correctly, he pulled a Marquez and hopped straight from one bike onto the next.

Thus again, they were merely racing each other. Who cares what Marquez was doing. Lorenzo believing he would make his time up in the pits, Rossi staying out to pull a gap so that didn't happen.

freighttrain
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by freighttrain »

Yes indeed.. Jorge did a good hop on to his bike with the wets equipped..
Pretty impressive actually.. How fast Jorge was in and out. Even waived the overly aggressive Marquez to stay behind them as they were leaving the pits.
Rossi got stuck behind a Ducati I believe, and even had a close call spinning his rear up a bit as he was leaving pit lane after that swap.
Jorge and Marc gapped Rossi immediately..

When those three were out on their wet bikes, after Marc let Rossi by in to second.. All seemed good for Jorge. After Rossi passed Jorge for the lead? Rossi gapped Jorge really quickly..
This is when Jorge's board was telling him to come in..
Marc did pit..
Jorge made the mistake of falling for Rossi's bait.
At least.. That is how it seemed to me? Even watching the race the second time.. It seems like Jprge focused on Rossi instead of his board.
Jorge snapped out of it.. Pitted.. And had it in his grasp. Rossi was screwed..
Then Jorge made his second mistake when Redding came flying by him with Baz.. Got nervous and try to quick to get on the throttle to keep up..
Jorge's second mistake..
Luck was involved.. Gambles and risks were taken..
But in my eyes? Jorge has no one but himself to blame.
Two costly errors in the clutch..

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Fingernails
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Fingernails »

Decker wrote: By "Losing sight of the big picture" I meant simply that they were only concerned with beating each other and weren't worried about MM or anyone else. So I suppose I could have worded it more precisely.
While watching, I was absolutely mystified as to why they didn't come in. Even if they were focussing on each other, whichever one came in first would have won, provided that he stayed upright (which of course didn't happen).

Rossi discussed risks, and that he couldn't afford to throw the dice. But, unless he seriously doubts his pit crew, it doesn't make sense to me that what he did was the lower risk option. Even as he continued to circle we were being reminded of riders that stayed out too long and ended up in the gravel.

There was a fair helping of luck in the result today. No result is every purely down to luck as there is skill involved n just staying upright. But, the proportion of luck in the last race was much more than average IMHO.

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Zaphod
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Zaphod »

Here's something to throw away.

What's to gain by staying out and going backwards ? ( I don't believe this thought process went on.....but , you never know) For 1, as long as your direct competition , who needs to get points back, stays out with you, the less points they stand to recoup. Maybe they'll be so consumed, that they follow you all the way down to 8th. maybe he thinks you know something about the weather he doesn't (given that you live/grew up/train there) and is going to stick with you.


Minimise the points loss to yourself, while ticking one of not-many-left-to-go races off the list. Maybe you get out of there with 9 or 10 points still in your favour, rather than 7 if you manage to come second to his first, etc.....


To me, that would seem like too much to be contemplating on the fly in those conditions........ then again, I haven't been racing motorcycles for the better part of my life.

Maybe he did have time........ only he knows, and I doubt he'll tell the truth of that story for a few years yet.
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Decker
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Decker »

Fingernails wrote:
Decker wrote: By "Losing sight of the big picture" I meant simply that they were only concerned with beating each other and weren't worried about MM or anyone else. So I suppose I could have worded it more precisely.
While watching, I was absolutely mystified as to why they didn't come in. Even if they were focussing on each other, whichever one came in first would have won, provided that he stayed upright (which of course didn't happen).

Rossi discussed risks, and that he couldn't afford to throw the dice. But, unless he seriously doubts his pit crew, it doesn't make sense to me that what he did was the lower risk option. Even as he continued to circle we were being reminded of riders that stayed out too long and ended up in the gravel.

There was a fair helping of luck in the result today. No result is every purely down to luck as there is skill involved n just staying upright. But, the proportion of luck in the last race was much more than average IMHO.

Agree. I don't think anyone but the tinfoil hat brigades would argue that luck was on Rossi's side that day.

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Squidpuppet
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Squidpuppet »

freighttrain wrote: Jorge snapped out of it.. Pitted.. And had it in his grasp. Rossi was screwed..
Then Jorge made his second mistake when Redding came flying by him with Baz.. Got nervous and try to quick to get on the throttle to keep up..
Jorge's second mistake..
Luck was involved.. Gambles and risks were taken..
But in my eyes? Jorge has no one but himself to blame.
Two costly errors in the clutch..
Yep.

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Squidpuppet
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Squidpuppet »

Decker wrote:

Agree. I don't think anyone but the tinfoil hat brigades would argue that luck was on Rossi's side that day.
:? Jorge fell down. isn't that good luck for Rossi?

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Tourn46
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Tourn46 »

Squidpuppet wrote:
Decker wrote:

Agree. I don't think anyone but the tinfoil hat brigades would argue that luck was on Rossi's side that day.
:? Jorge fell down. isn't that good luck for Rossi?
I'm not sure luck is the right word... you could say Jorge was lucky Rossi was slower in Mugello if you want to take that path, where do you draw the line?

I don't think luck was involved, it was a really tricky race and Rossi came out of it the 'least worst'.

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Squidpuppet
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Squidpuppet »

Tourn46 wrote:
I'm not sure luck is the right word... you could say Jorge was lucky Rossi was slower in Mugello if you want to take that path, where do you draw the line?

I don't think luck was involved, it was a really tricky race and Rossi came out of it the 'least worst'.
What is the right word?

It's a different kind of victory than beating the pants off of your opponents, if that makes sense. I'm pretty sure that if Jorge hadn't fallen down he would have beaten Rossi by virtue of pitting first, so I'm going to at least call it very good fortune for Rossi.

Rossi went around and around and around and didn't fall down. That's skill. That's what Rossi can control, himself. Rossi has no control over Jorge. Jorge fell down, adding to the points gap. When something happens, (that you had no control over) to improve your situation, that's not good luck? Good fortune? Bonus outcome?

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Decker
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Decker »

Squidpuppet wrote:
Decker wrote:

Agree. I don't think anyone but the tinfoil hat brigades would argue that luck was on Rossi's side that day.
:? Jorge fell down. isn't that good luck for Rossi?

My bad.... typed too fast. Meant "wasn't on Rossi's side". Tho to be fair he beat the rest of the field not including MM
by way of skill.

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CLX
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by CLX »

How is decided where each team will stand in the pit lane?

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speeddog
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by speeddog »

CLX wrote:How is decided where each team will stand in the pit lane?
Good question.
I'd like to know too.
speeddog wrote:Are the garage locations assigned randomly?

I did a quick skim through the latest rulebook and didn't find it.

Seemed to help Honda and Baz, as they were near the exit and teams had enough time to shuck the tire warmers and get the bike lit when the riders dropped in.
Yamaha guys, not so much.

smAshmoto
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by smAshmoto »

I don't know how they do the garages, but in Australia the last few years it has always been the same. Ducati closest to pit exit, then Honda, then Tech 3, then Yamaha, then on from there.
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Cobbett
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Cobbett »

One thing: we're all (naturally) exercised about the second pit stop (wets to slicks), their respective timings and judgment, Marquez letting Rossi past so he could watch both the Yamahas etc.

For the first, early stop, though (slicks to wets), there was a moment when Marquez glanced back at Rossi, and Rossi stuck his right foot out appearing to signal that he was pitting next time. What was that about?

Billysbones
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Billysbones »

Regarding Jorge being fragile, and only being fast when all his stars align, what about if we extrapolate that, to include the championship itself?
In other words, at present, he seems to be having small bits of misfortune which seems to be giving Rossi the upper hand. Is that messing with his head and causing him to misjudge things more? Make more mistakes? Or is everything playing on his mind so much that he is buggering things up for himself?
If I remember correctly, Jorge's two MotoGP championships were very much along the lines of how he likes to win races. ie: get out in front and increase the gap to your nearest rival.
Maybe the fact that he is actually having to fight race by race to claw back point for the title is messing with his head?

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Tourn46
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Tourn46 »

Billysbones wrote:Regarding Jorge being fragile, and only being fast when all his stars align, what about if we extrapolate that, to include the championship itself?
In other words, at present, he seems to be having small bits of misfortune which seems to be giving Rossi the upper hand. Is that messing with his head and causing him to misjudge things more? Make more mistakes? Or is everything playing on his mind so much that he is buggering things up for himself?
If I remember correctly, Jorge's two MotoGP championships were very much along the lines of how he likes to win races. ie: get out in front and increase the gap to your nearest rival.
Maybe the fact that he is actually having to fight race by race to claw back point for the title is messing with his head?
Jorge did a good job of hunting Marc down in 2013 when all looked lost.

freighttrain
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by freighttrain »

Did Rossi receive a penalty point for his "block" on Jorge during Q-2?

Cobbett
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Cobbett »

freighttrain wrote:Did Rossi receive a penalty point for his "block" on Jorge during Q-2?
Yes, one point.

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2015/0 ... rospe.html

freighttrain
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by freighttrain »

Cheers Cobbett...
Saved me the search.. I new that i read it some where, and was being called a "liar" by a friend..
Settled..

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CLX
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by CLX »

Billysbones wrote:Regarding Jorge being fragile, and only being fast when all his stars align, what about if we extrapolate that, to include the championship itself?(...)
I've been thinking about it.

Maybe this isn't about Lorenzo, maybe it is about others simply raising their game.

Lorenzo has always been a paragon for consistency and podium scoring. He held the Yamaha flag quite valiantly during HRC's 2010-2014 resurgence and onslaught and won titles instead of crashing left and right trying to over-ride his bike. Now all of a sudden, despite a perfectly capable bike, it seems he is either winning or way off. It doesn't make sense. I don't think he has become a fragile delicate rider or forgotten how to ride.

Others have simply raised the bar. Marquez has arrived. Rossi is back on his game. The Moto2 graduates are quite capable. Years and years on Bridgestone tyres have helped teams reach a closer level to each other.

I'm not sure. But maybe the issue isn't his fragility. No fragile guy would ever survive as a teammate to Rossi, to begin with, and then hold his own against seriously competitive alien HRC riders.

I think it's about the bar having been raised and him simply needing some time to re-adapt. He has already done it several times between joining MotoGP and now. The most impressive being, IMO, between 2011 and 2012 (as close to a perfect season as I have ever seen).

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MiniNinjaMk5
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

That shows how much of this stuff is subjective, as I completely disagree with you ! :D

I honestly believe that in 2015 Jorge is the fastest guy out there, providing there aren't inclement conditions. Those can be either the weather conditions (Silverstone, Misano) or situations like his equipment failure (his helmet falling apart/misting).

I also think that if he doesn't win in 2015 that will be the second time that he has not despite his speed. He was also the fastest guy in 2013, but circumstances consipired against him. I'm not the only person who thinks this - Mike Scott in Motorcourse gave Jorge a joint first place with Marquez in his top 10 riders of the year, the only time that has ever been done in the history of the publication.

But, as well all know it's not always the 'fastest' guy that wins the WC, as there are so many other factors involved (and hey this would be a boring sport if it were).

I do agree agree that the bar has been raised in recent years, but I think Lorenzo is one of those raising it.

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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Cobbett »

freighttrain wrote:Cheers Cobbett...
Saved me the search.. I new that i read it some where, and was being called a "liar" by a friend..
Settled..
I think your friend should receive a penalty point... :D

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Tourn46
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Tourn46 »

MiniNinjaMk5 wrote: I do agree agree that the bar has been raised in recent years, but I think Lorenzo is one of those raising it.
I think Marquez shifted the goal posts more than anyone. I would say he is faster than Jorge, I would say he is more aggressive than Jorge, he will ride through problems better than Jorge, he doesn't get bothered by rain like Jorge.

Jorge is playing keep up with Marquez.

Rossi is just an anomaly how he still keeps going and dragging himself into contention.

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Grahluk
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Grahluk »

Tourn46 wrote: I think Marquez shifted the goal posts more than anyone. I would say he is faster than Jorge, I would say he is more aggressive than Jorge, he will ride through problems better than Jorge, he doesn't get bothered by rain like Jorge.

Jorge is playing keep up with Marquez.

Rossi is just an anomaly how he still keeps going and dragging himself into contention.
I'll agree with that. Marc this year is hampered by a very flawed bike. If you look at where the other Hondas are placing you'd think they're in crisis. Pedrosa may have a winless & mostly podiumless season. Redding couldn't find his feet on this year's RCV & it's driving him to a Ducati next year for crissakes! Crutchlow is very inconsistent on the RCV. Is this year as bad as his rookie year? Marc's washed his title hopes away by some unwise & unfortunate events but with a bike that is unruly & ill mannered as his mongrel 14/15 RCV he cam still pop Lorenzo for outright speed as often as not & can put together a pace to win. He's only won one fewer races than Jorge. To point out how bad the RCV might be I think of his Silverstone crash. As he was sliding & stopped his posture was WTF? He gets up & you could see that his gesture was a big "what just happened here?" Reminds me of Stoner on the Ducati in the latter years of his term with them. He blazed in moments of dominance while all others on the same bike were mediocre or lost. Other times he slid off unceremoniously because the bike just didn't want to do what it did the previous lap. I think when Honda sorts the RCV out Jorge will have his hands full again with Marc. Vale may sneak a title through guile & experience but Marc is his true antithesis. He's as much a brawler as Rossi & is showing a growing cunningness. What makes that dangerous for Jorge is he has the outright speed to put those in use and disrupt Jorge's protractor smooth style up front.

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Zaphod
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Re: MotoGP 2015, Misano

Post by Zaphod »

I agree with all that.


Something I've been thinking for a while when taking all the above into account...... And I don't mean the personalities are the same , or any other such nonsense, but......


Rossi and Biaggi


Marquez and Lorenzo



Biaggi was going to be the stuff... then along came a brash young punk who not only didn't like him, but could smoke him when it came to pace, brawling and cunning.


Lorenzo ? He's got Rossi and Pedrosa's measure on all but their absolute best days, and one of them will be leaving in one/ a couple/ a few years.

Then along comes this punk kid......


Here's a useless point to ponder........ What if Rossi snatches this years crown, and then in the off season Honda fix this bike, an Marq goes on to........ well, not impossible that he'd do a "Rossi" ,and just collect titles for quite a few years is it ?
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