Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

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kenup283
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Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by kenup283 »

http://m.crash.net/motogp/news/215219/1 ... nfair.html

Rossi quoted here specically singling out Ducati and calling it unfair they can use a softer tire because now they have improved.

Can someone pass him a crying towel.

Personally it's a blessing for him as Ducati can't be competive over race distance with it. Once they are no longer restricted from using the harder race rubber then they will be a more consistent threat.

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Tourn46
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Tourn46 »

The rule is there to give them a helping hand... if it has shifted to giving them and advantage, then it needs to change.

I'm not sure Ducati want to win anything just because rules favour them.

I am not saying conclusively that they DO now have an advantage, just that this rule should be scrutinised.

Japhrodisiac
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Japhrodisiac »

I understand that there is an exception to Ducati's exception, that if they win in the dry they lose the advantages they have been afforded. I hope they do lose the advantage, competition is competition after all

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MiniNinjaMk5
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

Tourn46 wrote:The rule is there to give them a helping hand... if it has shifted to giving them and advantage, then it needs to change.
.
That's it and all about it.

The rules are there to help new teams and those that are struggling find their feet. The moment Ducati start winning, and becoming a serious threat to Honda and Yamaha over race distance, no doubt we will see their advantages rescinded.

I didn't get the impression that Rossi was whining/crying about it, just passing his opinion. Is he not entitled to do that?

kenup283
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by kenup283 »

I see it in the opposite way but same conclusion.

To me there is no advantage to this rule, it is only a disadvantage.

An Artificial boost in qualifying but unable to last the race, does nobody any real good... other than make it interesting for the viewers at home and keep doubting sponsors intersted by seeing their bikes on screen for a bit.

But what I see here is Rossi seems worried that he's going to big tripping over the Ducatis more so than last year in early stages of a race and loosing touch with the leader(s), and setting the stage from which to voice his displeasure.

So ditch the rule, yes, but Rossi saying it's unfair because now this year they are faster in testing is a bit much.

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Tourn46
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Tourn46 »

kenup283 wrote:I see it in the opposite way but same conclusion.

To me there is no advantage to this rule, it is only a disadvantage.

An Artificial boost in qualifying but unable to last the race, does nobody any real good... other than make it interesting for the viewers at home and keep doubting sponsors intersted by seeing their bikes on screen for a bit.

But what I see here is Rossi seems worried that he's going to big tripping over the Ducatis more so than last year in early stages of a race and loosing touch with the leader(s), and setting the stage from which to voice his displeasure.

So ditch the rule, yes, but Rossi saying it's unfair because now this year they are faster in testing is a bit much.
But the fact most races none of the factory riders used the hard tyre kind of negates your argument.

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Fingernails
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Fingernails »

Tourn46 wrote: But the fact most races none of the factory riders used the hard tyre kind of negates your argument.
Over and above how often the tire was used, can anyone name a race where access to the hard tyres was a significant advantage?

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Tourn46
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Tourn46 »

Fingernails wrote:
Tourn46 wrote: But the fact most races none of the factory riders used the hard tyre kind of negates your argument.
Over and above how often the tire was used, can anyone name a race where access to the hard tyres was a significant advantage?
I think that is exactly the point.

As it stands, if the Ducati performance of Sepang holds true for other tracks... Essentially they will have a sticky qualifying tyre and then use the same tyre as the other guys come race day. I can't think of an example of the hard tyres offering an advantage off the top of my head, but I think Marc used it in a couple of races.

If that is the case, then it seems sensible for the other riders/teams to question the validity of this advantage.

I see no crying here, I see someone pointing out the obvious when posed the question - what is he supposed to have done, ignored the interviewer?

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Grahluk
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Grahluk »

kenup283 wrote:http://m.crash.net/motogp/news/215219/1 ... nfair.html

Rossi quoted here specically singling out Ducati and calling it unfair they can use a softer tire because now they have improved.

Can someone pass him a crying towel.

Personally it's a blessing for him as Ducati can't be competive over race distance with it. Once they are no longer restricted from using the harder race rubber then they will be a more consistent threat.
The crying towel bit is a bit much no? Delivery is everything & from seeing enough interviews over the years he's always delivered his criticisms with humor. I've yet to see the quoted interview but I'd expect much the same. As for his point, well yes it's not "fair" but Ducati was given that unfair advantage because their bike was such a nail that the class was turning into a 2 horse race. Now that they're looking quite good in testing that advantage is really starting to look like an advantage.
I suspect we'll see Ducati's on the front row quite often this year. I also suspect they'll be competitive up front for more than the first few laps. Of all the contenders for the title of which Rossi certainly is if not odds on for it, it is him that I think will suffer most by Ducati's new found potential. Rossi's strong suit has never been qualifying or early lap break aways. Even when he was the only alien he would often start from the second row and fight through for the win. Cunning, racecraft, & consistency have been more his strong points. Unfortunately for him that can't cut it these days. If you're not off & away with the leaders it's rare that the gap can be closed from fighting through the second group. We've seen more often than not that one of the top 4 is doing the same or similar race pace as the leaders there's little chance of closing for a challenge. Marc & Jorge have that edge on Rossi. Even on weekends where Rossi has similar pace it's those other two (& occasionally Pedrosa) who are sitting on the front row & at race pace from the off. I imagine Rossi's plan is/will be to stick as close to the two title favorites from the start & hope to beat them in the mid or late stages of the race as his racecraft is more than capable & his late race pace is more promising than early on or qualifying. Having some very potent Ducatis inserting themselves between himself & MM or JL will not do Rossi any favors. So yes, he should be concerned even if he says so with a smile. Still, Ducati can't be penalized for potential. They don't yet have the results that will take away the concessions given them. Unfortunately for Rossi those results look likely to come but by then his shot at title #10 may be out of reach.

kenup283
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by kenup283 »

^That's why I think someone either prompted him on the question for him to voice his opinion. Of course he is not actually crying. Just trying to have fun with this to.

As for allocations you can see them here, open the Valencia file to view the whole season.

http://www.bridgestonemotorsport.com/statistics/2014

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speeddog
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by speeddog »

Tourn46 wrote:
But the fact most races none of the factory riders used the hard tyre kind of negates your argument.
MM used the harder of his options to win five races last year.

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Tourn46
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Tourn46 »

speeddog wrote:
Tourn46 wrote:
But the fact most races none of the factory riders used the hard tyre kind of negates your argument.
MM used the harder of his options to win five races last year.
Ok... One rider. The point still holds firm.

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Fingernails
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Fingernails »

Tourn46 wrote: Ok... One rider. The point still holds firm.
I don't think it does. Four race wins implies that the hard tyre is an advantage at some tracks. There will be other tracks, perhaps a majority, where the hard tyre is of limited or no advantage. But, not always.

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Tourn46
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Tourn46 »

Fingernails wrote:
Tourn46 wrote: Ok... One rider. The point still holds firm.
I don't think it does. Four race wins implies that the hard tyre is an advantage at some tracks. There will be other tracks, perhaps a majority, where the hard tyre is of limited or no advantage. But, not always.
... and 14 where it didn't win.

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Fingernails
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Fingernails »

Tourn46 wrote: ... and 14 where it didn't win.
That doesn't argue against having the choice of using the hard tyre being an advantage.

kenup283
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by kenup283 »

And don't forget at some races the hardest tire was actually the medium (shown as black dot). In those races Ducati was only allowed the soft and extra soft. There's a couple more for that list.

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JanBros
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by JanBros »

Tourn46 wrote: Ok... One rider. The point still holds firm.
Tourn46 wrote:... and 14 where it didn't win.
what point ? you don't have any.
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Tourn46
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Tourn46 »

JanBros wrote:
Tourn46 wrote: Ok... One rider. The point still holds firm.
Tourn46 wrote:... and 14 where it didn't win.
what point ? you don't have any.
It is simple.

Allocation for a race...

Open = Soft and Medium
Factory = Medium and Hard

The hard tyre is not picked a great deal, especially by Yamaha.

Ducati will then effectively get a sticky qualifying tyre and then run the race on the medium, the same as the factory bikes. IF the Ducati is on the pace of the Yamaha's and Honda's, this could clearly have the initiative handed to them in qualifying.

I am not saying it is impossible for the factories to have an advantage with the hard tyre, I am merely suggesting why this rule needs to be monitored. That it was given Ducati on their lack of bike performance, there is potential that this could really impact races and results in my opinion.

I'm not really sure why this even needed clarification, but there you go...

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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Fingernails »

The context and ambiguity of your replies made it look (to my eyes at least) as if you were claiming that the Ducati tyre advantage was all one way. Your most recent clarification shows that we weren't actually disagreeing.

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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by JanBros »

Tourn46 wrote: I am not saying it is impossible for the factories to have an advantage with the hard tyre, I am merely suggesting why this rule needs to be monitored. That it was given Ducati on their lack of bike performance, there is potential that this could really impact races and results in my opinion.

I'm not really sure why this even needed clarification, but there you go...
because you keep talking about Ducati, but it is not a Ducati-rule/advantage. Suzuki/aprilia and all other non factory/satelite teams also run under the same rules. They were agreed and accepted by all.
Honda and Yamaha have turned MotoGP into a 2-way battle, and now simply because their reign might be in danger is not a valid point to change the rules.

I could thinck of about a dozen rules that should be changed to take away some of the advantages Honda and Yamaha have, but those do not seem to be a problem ?
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Tourn46
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Tourn46 »

JanBros wrote:
Tourn46 wrote: I am not saying it is impossible for the factories to have an advantage with the hard tyre, I am merely suggesting why this rule needs to be monitored. That it was given Ducati on their lack of bike performance, there is potential that this could really impact races and results in my opinion.

I'm not really sure why this even needed clarification, but there you go...
because you keep talking about Ducati, but it is not a Ducati-rule/advantage. Suzuki/aprilia and all other non factory/satelite teams also run under the same rules. They were agreed and accepted by all.
Honda and Yamaha have turned MotoGP into a 2-way battle, and now simply because their reign might be in danger is not a valid point to change the rules.

I could thinck of about a dozen rules that should be changed to take away some of the advantages Honda and Yamaha have, but those do not seem to be a problem ?
Everyone keeps complaining that their are different rules for different teams, now that I'm suggesting when there is performance parity (IF Ducati, and I say Ducati because they are most likely, are able to compete with Yamaha and Honda) that we should extinguish one rule that would be very easy to implement, it's causing an uproar?

Are people wanting Ducati to win when they have an advantage? Where possible, the rules should be equal, I'm far from anti-Ducati, I want to see them compete, but I don't want to see them winning because of silly rules like this which should never have been introduced in the first place.

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Tourn46
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Tourn46 »

http://www.crash.net/motogp/interview/2 ... rg-qa.html

In this interview, Wilco Zeelenberg discusses the Ducati situation... seems he's been reading my posts ;)

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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by kenup283 »

^ What do you think of Zeelenburg's comment on if MotogP had multiple tire companies again that the factories would get the best tires and be a second a clear of everyone else.

Rossi has enjoyed such privileges in the past, why should he be critical now when teams without results get a special qualifying tire. After all he's had his share of those too.

I think Rossi is just afraid it could hold him up in early stages of a race. To be honest I'm a bit surprised why. He gets past riders better than just about everyone and has improved his qualifying in the new format as well.


I know many see this softer tire as an advantage but has anyone ever finished a race on one.

Contrast that to multiple race wins on a tire those teams are not allowed to use.

And finally, what is the benefit in starting 10 meters ahead of where you would have been, when the tire you must run the race with, is half a second slower than the others who are on the same tire in the race as they qualified with.

It's just a grid boost and nothing more and you're gonna get smoked in the race.

Also it means you've only got one shot at setting up your bike to make one tire work for the race. You don't have any another option.

I see no advantage in any of that. Just disadvantage.

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Tourn46
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by Tourn46 »

kenup283 wrote:^ What do you think of Zeelenburg's comment on if MotogP had multiple tire companies again that the factories would get the best tires and be a second a clear of everyone else.

Rossi has enjoyed such privileges in the past, why should he be critical now when teams without results get a special qualifying tire. After all he's had his share of those too.

I think Rossi is just afraid it could hold him up in early stages of a race. To be honest I'm a bit surprised why. He gets past riders better than just about everyone and has improved his qualifying in the new format as well.


I know many see this softer tire as an advantage but has anyone ever finished a race on one.

Contrast that to multiple race wins on a tire those teams are not allowed to use.

And finally, what is the benefit in starting 10 meters ahead of where you would have been, when the tire you must run the race with, is half a second slower than the others who are on the same tire in the race as they qualified with.

It's just a grid boost and nothing more and you're gonna get smoked in the race.

Also it means you've only got one shot at setting up your bike to make one tire work for the race. You don't have any another option.

I see no advantage in any of that. Just disadvantage.
I think you're focusing too much on Rossi, I'm not really sure what 2005 has to do with 2015.

You don't seem to be reading my comments or Zeelenberg's. Yamaha rarely used the harder of their choice of tyres. This means that Ducati get a soft qualifying tyre AND use the same race tyre as them.

IF there is not a gap in performance, then I don't see how it can be a disadvantage, using the SAME tyre to race on, yet getting a softer qualifying tyre.

kenup283
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Re: Ducati GP15 Complaints already surfacing

Post by kenup283 »

It means they are going to go backwards in the race no matter what. It also means they get only one viable choice of tire to set their bike up to. Factory teams have two race options and somtimes use it to win and find it more consistent. I'm just looking at this from a different angle that's all.

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