Jerez 2013

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Squidpuppet
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Squidpuppet »

Kropotkin wrote:Marquez move on Lorenzo was perfectly legitimate.
IMO the right to attempt it was perfectly legitimate, but the execution was sloppy at best.

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Kropotkin
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Kropotkin »

Squidpuppet wrote:
dave_m wrote: Lorenzo took a much wider line and left much more of an opening than Gibernau did, so it's really hard to see how Marquez did anything wrong here.
Jorge was on the racing line and MM went straight through the turn, causing the contact. That aint wrong? You dont think MM would have made the corner, do you?
Lorenzo was on the racing line if he was the only rider on the track. He should have known he had someone behind him, and adjusted his riding accordingly. He did not, and paid the penalty. He expected Marquez to capitulate. In fact, if he'd been smart, he would have braked a fraction earlier, let Marquez overshoot, then dived underneath him to take 2nd. He behaved imperiously, and suffered the consequences.
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Kropotkin »

Squidpuppet wrote:
Kropotkin wrote:Marquez move on Lorenzo was perfectly legitimate.
IMO the right to attempt it was perfectly legitimate, but the execution was sloppy at best.
The right to attempt it is the only thing that matters. It is the factor which separates a dangerous move from a a legitimate one. Riders are allowed to make mistakes, as long as their intent was to make a pass.
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Kropotkin
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Kropotkin »

As a counter-example, look at Marquez' pass at the end of the back straight into Dry Sack. Overcooked it, went straight on, Lorenzo kept his cool and slid underneath. That could have happened in the final corner.
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by dave_m »

Squidpuppet wrote:
dave_m wrote: Lorenzo took a much wider line and left much more of an opening than Gibernau did, so it's really hard to see how Marquez did anything wrong here.
Jorge was on the racing line and MM went straight through the turn, causing the contact. That aint wrong? You dont think MM would have made the corner, do you?
Marquez went for an opening and blocking other riders is part of the sport. If Marquez wasn't going to make it through the corner on the line he was on, then Lorenzo should have taken a different line instead of running into the side of Marquez. Lorenzo had two good options, either enter much tighter and not leave an opening, or cut back under Marquez and take second.

Kropotkin wrote:As a counter-example, look at Marquez' pass at the end of the back straight into Dry Sack. Overcooked it, went straight on, Lorenzo kept his cool and slid underneath. That could have happened in the final corner.
Didn't Lorenzo think that error had caused Marquez to lose enough time that he couldn't make a move in the final corner? I couldn't believe how wide Lorenzo was, or how much room he left.

mehow
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by mehow »

"[...] you should know that by being a racing driver, you are under risks all the time. By being a racing driver means you are racing with other people. And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver, because we are competing. We are competing to win, and the main motivation to all of us is to compete for victory..." - Ayrton Senna

Japhrodisiac
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Japhrodisiac »

Marquez tries this same kind of move at least 3 other times during the race, and one other attempt on the last lap. He almost collects Jorge and himself in the process. He learns nothing from this and goes for it again on the final corner. I had a dog like him once, never stopped chasing cars. He died eventually, got hit by a car.

Race direction can't step in as they allowed the exact same pass in the same corner for Rossi in 2005. Marquez knows this and pretty much says as much in his interview. Sounds as premeditated as it gets in racing

Jorge left the door too far open, he should know MM by now will take a 0.5mm opening as a gift wrapped golden invitation with cake and an all you can drink open bar

Jorge does not often repeat a mistake

MM often does

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CLX
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by CLX »

I'll have Marquez trying to race and pass any day over processional races.

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lebowski
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by lebowski »

+1

The door was (wide) open. He was entitled to have a go. As a racer he was obliged to. These things happen in less than a split second. He reacted. Nobody crashed. Racing incident.

tz250w
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by tz250w »

Albert wrote:
Gustav O wrote:
He surely has matured since his entry in GPs. :)
--------- and much more since this incident! :lol:
Karma! lol

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Oscar
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Oscar »

Kropotkin wrote:Lorenzo was on the racing line if he was the only rider on the track. He should have known he had someone behind him, and adjusted his riding accordingly. He did not, and paid the penalty. He expected Marquez to capitulate. In fact, if he'd been smart, he would have braked a fraction earlier, let Marquez overshoot, then dived underneath him to take 2nd. He behaved imperiously, and suffered the consequences.
I'm not sure it is fair to say Lorenzo behaved imperiously; he was fighting a front tyre that wasn't giving him any assistance. He misjudged the speed at which Marquez was gathering him in and did not expect Marquez to be close enough to snot him, and selected the fastest line for the condition his bike was in for the corner instead of fighting for the line through it. That, I believe, is what Lin Jarvis saw and he told Lorenzo that, and Lorenzo - despite his irritation - had the grace to accept it. I believe that when Lorenzo sees a replay of the race, he will accept that Marquez's move was acceptable (if rather excitable, but Lorenzo is not exactly innocent of such actions at the same time of his life). Those two may not exactly bury the hatchet but I have far too much belief in Lorenzo's maturity and sangfroid to think he will hold a grudge. What I am looking forward to is him dishing out the inevitable revenge, as clinically as a surgeon removing a wart.. and Marquez will just have to grin and bear it. Lorenzo holds Marquez's IOU, and it WILL be cashed in.

What I do find interesting is that race fans seem to have largely passed beyond the infamous Laguna Seca 2008 exchange of commentary and accepted that riders in parc ferme may be in a somewhat heightened state of emotional condition at the end of 45 or so minutes of incredibly intense effort that has not, ultimately, gone their way. Lorenzo was deeply pissed, I think with himself for allowing the opportunity to exist as much as from what happened. To demand that the riders should sublimate their emotions while their adrenalin level is still off the planet that normal mortals inhabit is something that no person who has raced would expect. Those who continually regurgitate their opprobrium of certain riders for certain moments are judgmental on a level that simply illustrates their prejudices, rather than any understanding of the reality of being involved in a race.
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Rossifumi »

mehow wrote:"[...] you should know that by being a racing driver, you are under risks all the time. By being a racing driver means you are racing with other people. And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver, because we are competing. We are competing to win, and the main motivation to all of us is to compete for victory..." - Ayrton Senna
the context of that quote was in an interview with Jackie Stewart where Stewart was calling Senna out for the amount of times Senna had been making contact with other drivers. Stewart's final remarks after that quote were "you need to grow up".

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RoyBatty
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by RoyBatty »

First post, so salutations...

On one hand I agree with Kropotkin, Lorenzo may have left the door open a little (which he admitted to himself) either not knowing MM would make the attempt or fighting the front end. Also, in the article I read, with Rossi relegated to essentially back-marker status while on the Duc - the other top riders became very polite and aggressive battles were given up for being "inch perfect". So Lorenzo is unused to a little argy-bargy. I don't mean that in a critical way.

So here comes MM full of sh*t and vinegar and wanting to conquer the world and come hell or high water he wants Jorge's position and so aggressively goes for it. I think he realized that this type of event is going to come back to bite him at some point in the future - although he did have the good sense to try to apologize.

Also was really impressed with Jorge's diplomacy and composure immediately after the race when interviewed and said he did not want to discuss the matter. That shows real maturity and restraint. I mean one second you're flying around at 180 risking life and limb, and the next you're having microphones shoved in your face. I really respected him for that.

From a spectator's perspective it did make for an interesting race, but it's easy to say that sitting on your couch eating chips (tortilla chips here in Cali) and salsa - while those guys are out there risking life & limb.

Also at one point they briefly showed a super hidef slo-mo shot which was incredible.

My 2 cents (which due to inflation are worth considerably less.) so go easy on me - I'm still a relative noob to Motogp.

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Tourn46
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Tourn46 »

Japhrodisiac wrote: Jorge does not often repeat a mistake

MM often does
If Marquez's mistake is to finish ahead of the rider he's battling with... I hope he makes many more. He is there to win, I want to watch riders who want to win.

I like Jorge and I like Marquez, but I would rather see them fight for position than form an orderly queue...

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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Rossifumi »

I guess this all now comes down to a matter of taste since Marquez hasn't been penalised and the precedent has now been set for the season. It undoubtedly makes for excitement of a sort and generates column inches but personally, whether it's Capirossi on Harada, Rossi on Gibernau or Marquez on Luthi/Espargaro/Lorenzo it leaves a bad taste in the mouth - not how I want to see races/positions/titles won.

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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by frankrizzo »

Squidpuppet wrote:
Tourn46 wrote: I honestly thought he was entitled to go for it...
Without a doubt, the door was left wide open. It's just that he failed to cleanly execute the move. He went in way too hot and never would have made the corner without using Jorge as a berm. Without the contact, MM finishes third. He almost ended his own race, and Jorges, three times in one race.
Exactly. He blew the last turn knowing that he would blow it for Lorenzo too, that's what's not clean about it. I'm all for block passes but that move was a touch cynical. But it's a first strike in the class so I don't know how much it will affect how the other guys ride. Lorenzo likes to keep things clean, he raced Pedrosa hard at Brno last year and lost, but it was cool because it was very hard, very clean racing. Personally I'd rather see races won that way than yesterday's fiasco.

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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Kropotkin »

RoyBatty wrote:First post, so salutations...

On one hand I agree with Kropotkin, Lorenzo may have left the door open a little (which he admitted to himself) either not knowing MM would make the attempt or fighting the front end. Also, in the article I read, with Rossi relegated to essentially back-marker status while on the Duc - the other top riders became very polite and aggressive battles were given up for being "inch perfect". So Lorenzo is unused to a little argy-bargy. I don't mean that in a critical way.

So here comes MM full of sh*t and vinegar and wanting to conquer the world and come hell or high water he wants Jorge's position and so aggressively goes for it. I think he realized that this type of event is going to come back to bite him at some point in the future - although he did have the good sense to try to apologize.

Also was really impressed with Jorge's diplomacy and composure immediately after the race when interviewed and said he did not want to discuss the matter. That shows real maturity and restraint. I mean one second you're flying around at 180 risking life and limb, and the next you're having microphones shoved in your face. I really respected him for that.

From a spectator's perspective it did make for an interesting race, but it's easy to say that sitting on your couch eating chips (tortilla chips here in Cali) and salsa - while those guys are out there risking life & limb.

Also at one point they briefly showed a super hidef slo-mo shot which was incredible.

My 2 cents (which due to inflation are worth considerably less.) so go easy on me - I'm still a relative noob to Motogp.
Greetings, and good first post.
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belleellis
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by belleellis »

To me it looked like a racing incident. That being said to me Marcquez didn't look like he was completely in control of the bike the whole race. Each time he a had a nibble at Lorenzo's heels and it didn't work out he wobbled all over the place. I think the reason he celebrated so much was that he was surprised and relieved that he made the corner, let alone in second place. Whenever the top guys, the 'perfectionist' riders like Lorenzo, Pedrosa, Stoner have a moment they seem to regroup, refocus and keep going. Marcquez seems to barely flinch when he has things start to move in the wrong direction and then immediately tries it in the next corner.

I can understand when Lorenzo was so hot under the collar. Especially if he wasn't expecting Marcquez to be so close and then bang. Heart in throat moment.

It did have a bit of an aura of inevitability about it though.

Hopefully less Jerez 2013 and more Bruno 2012 for the rest of the season.

And well done Dani for a great ride.

MorganC1
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by MorganC1 »

Wouldn't mind a bit of Catalunya 2009 thrown in there!

coyote
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by coyote »

Faster1 wrote: ,IMO on both occasions the "Punter" was wrong. You can't just make space where it isn't. ,, or where does it end. You can't just intentionally violate the laws of physics. >drag race to the beginning of a corner without thought or regard to where that extra speed will take you. These moves are unnecessarily dangerous and have to be penalized or the next evolution of this "tactic" is to actually let the pursuer pass because all you need to do for the win is pull a Marquez.

,, and I AM being objective.. regardless of who is pulling off that bull sh*t tactic,, it's wrong,, its wrong for the simple fact that it was a calculated move, not a mistake. :geek:
I'd agree with that, the point is that is it punishable? IMO what it comes down to is if the move of the rider throwing it down the inside knowing that he won't exit the corner in a way that will allow him to get ahead (different to a block pass where the rider is able to position his bike to deny the overtakee an optimal exit while himself getting a good enough exit himself.

I've changed my mind personally after watching it a couple times more, that Marquez shouldn't be penalized.
dave_m wrote:Regarding the comparisons to Rossi/Gibernau in 2005, Rossi was barely even with Gibernau, blew the corner worse than Marquez and ended up forcing Gibernau off the track and into the gravel. Marquez was ahead of Lorenzo when the contact occurred, had a reasonable line through the corner and did not force Lorenzo into the gravel (partly due to more pavement in the corner). Lorenzo took a much wider line and left much more of an opening than Gibernau did, so it's really hard to see how Marquez did anything wrong here. Even if you think Rossi should have been penalized, he wasn't, and this was even more of a racing incident.
I disagree. Rossi and Marquez were both coming from the same distance, the difference was that Gibernau actually defended the corner by taking a more inside line, but still leaving a reasonable gap on the inside. The contact happened right at the inside apex of the corner, which indicates that had Gibernau not defended and let Rossi go he would've won easily on the exit. As it is, he neither defended the corner by completely closed the inside, or took the outside and undercut Rossi, both of which would've won him the race. What he did was the worst possible option.

Onto this incident, I actually believe Lorenzo tried to do the undercut but because Marquez tried to take a reasonable line himself while overtaking at way too much sped (unlike Rossi, who went completely on the inside, partly bc of Gibernau), their lines eventually met, at about 3 meters from the apex. I also don't agree how Rossi blew the corner worse, while it's hard to say how wide he would've gone Marquez for sure looks like he's going somewhere around the white line at the edge of the track without the contact. That Gibernau ended up on the gravel is completely (not partly) due to more pavement in the corner, so irrelevant.

More than anything, I was disappointed in how Marquez first almost hit Lorenzo going into Dry Sac, and then proceeded to snatch the brakes and do the same mistake 2 times again. He clearly didn't show the same composure as in the first 2 races.

Rossifumi
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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Rossifumi »

Kropotkin wrote: Riders are allowed to make mistakes, as long as their intent was to make a pass.
If that is how the rules are written then motoGP stands apart from every other sport. In F1 a penalty is given for 'causing and avoidable crash'; in football, even if the player genuinely goes for the ball a penalty will still be given and he will be sent off if he brings the player down without getting the ball. Surely the consequences have some relevance? Simoncelli was intending to pass Pedrosa when he took him off at Le Mans but still got a penalty.

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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Gustav O »

frankrizzo wrote:Exactly. He blew the last turn knowing that he would blow it for Lorenzo too, that's what's not clean about it. I'm all for block passes but that move was a touch cynical. But it's a first strike in the class so I don't know how much it will affect how the other guys ride. Lorenzo likes to keep things clean, he raced Pedrosa hard at Brno last year and lost, but it was cool because it was very hard, very clean racing. Personally I'd rather see races won that way than yesterday's fiasco.
Couldn´t agree more.

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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Squidpuppet »

dave_m wrote:
1. Marquez went for an opening and blocking other riders is part of the sport. If Marquez wasn't going to make it through the corner on the line he was on, then Lorenzo should have taken a different line instead of running into the side of Marquez. Lorenzo had two good options, either enter much tighter and not leave an opening, or cut back under Marquez and take second.

2. Didn't Lorenzo think that error had caused Marquez to lose enough time that he couldn't make a move in the final corner? I couldn't believe how wide Lorenzo was, or how much room he left.
Your second statement answers your first. How would Jorge know whether or not a rider behind him is going to make it or not??? When Jorge began tipping in he was surprised to see Marc there, he lifted his bike but it wasnt enough to avoid contact. Isnt it the passing riders oblgation to get through cleanly?

I agree with Zelenberg
If Jorge hadn't been there, Marc would have ended up somewhere in the grandstands, because he definitely used him as a berm to help him turn.

What should Jorge have done differently?

He should have shut the door a bit more. We discussed that. He kept to the left after coming out of the fast right hander, but then moved to the right, a bit too far, and that opened a gap. There wasn't really any room, because Marquez would never have made the corner. Jorge was supposed to take that corner in first gear, to block and hold the tight line, get off the brakes earlier, to ensure he couldn't get by. Unfortunately, he thought that Marc was not going to try to get by here.

It has nothing to do with the different riding styles and lines of the Honda and the Yamaha. Marc just thought, I'll try and see where I end up. Luckily for both of them, it ended up OK, because if he had crashed, then he would have been given a penalty. [Race Direction] spoke about the pass for a long time. Dani and Jorge would never have tried to pull such a stunt, they don't use their opponents as berms to try to make the corner, and that's a bit what happened here. It's not a contact sport, and this sort of thing happens, but if they don't act against it, it gets accepted, which I think is a bad thing.

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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Japhrodisiac »

Gustav O wrote:
frankrizzo wrote:Exactly. He blew the last turn knowing that he would blow it for Lorenzo too, that's what's not clean about it. I'm all for block passes but that move was a touch cynical. But it's a first strike in the class so I don't know how much it will affect how the other guys ride. Lorenzo likes to keep things clean, he raced Pedrosa hard at Brno last year and lost, but it was cool because it was very hard, very clean racing. Personally I'd rather see races won that way than yesterday's fiasco.
Couldn´t agree more.
+2

If you go for an opening that you have little chance of either rider coming out of then what is that, racing? Not to me it isn't. You're deciding that a double DNF is preferable to losing a position.

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Re: Jerez 2013

Post by Squidpuppet »

Kropotkin wrote: The right to attempt it is the only thing that matters.
If a rider fills a clean and legitimate opportunity with a dangerous move, doesnt that matter? Isnt it the passing riders responsibility to get through cleanly?
Riders are allowed to make mistakes, as long as their intent was to make a pass.
When a rider develops a pattern, a record for being the common denominator in controversial incidents, shouldnt it be addressed? Marc was clearly riding beyond his own limit, which is fine when you are solo, trying to catch a rider in the distance, but not when making a pass or in traffic.

I am all for passionate and aggressive racing at the ragged edge of the limit, but Marc seems to go beyond that edge far too often.

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