2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

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MiniNinjaMk5
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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

Was this a way of saying "look, we are watching you, and if you ride dangerously we can cost you a race" ?

If so, there are surely better ways of doing it.

In all honesty I don't think it was either riders fault. Marquez almost losing the front created an unusual situation - pushing him off-line, then Esparago went for the gap. It rapidly diminished, both riders tried to occupy the same piece of track, *BLAM* and that was that.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Zaphod »

I fail to see the difference between the Sic/Pedrosa LeMans incident, and the one here.
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CLX
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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by CLX »

One was a normal overtaking manuvre, the other involved commiting a mistake and correcting it/returning to racing line without any regard for possible nearby competitors.

They are quite different to me.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Zaphod »

That's how I see it as well, although if I wanted to stick my own opinion on it, Pedrosa had his back wheel off the ground, counter steering and the bike nearly upright, trying for a an ever diminishing gap on a line that at best meant Sic was going to end up in the dirt.

The key for me there, is some are now taking the line that Pol was going for a gap that wasn't there...........

I'd like to know why in one incident the rider on the inside was right in one instance, and in the other is the fool ?

Anyway, great rides from Luthi and Iannone.

strange ride from Stoner..........wonder what happened. Both he and Pedrosa would have been on similar set ups (guess) and were aparently on the same tyres. Looked like a bad start, but thought he'd recover that in quick time.

Strange.

Spies...... a case of trying to hard too early ? Shame.
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Nachlauf
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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Nachlauf »

It seems like they felt they should have punished Marquez earlier. If so that's still bad policing. Had they given him a probation after Qatar, then a penalty might have been arguable. But they didn't and so a penalty today is totally uncalled for.

As I said after Qatar: they should really have a long and careful talk with Marquez. He needs to understand that he has a certain responsibility towards his competitors. Otherwise his riding will become standard and sooner or later someone might get killed or seriously injured. (I know, I know, he has to take only half the blame for today, but still he had his share again).

Anyway, what a race of mixed feelings for Ben. Did you see his rocket start? Beautiful! Too bad he messed up his attempt to overtake Dani. But at least he has shown today, that he has the pace, the mojo and the spirit to race at the sharp end in MotoGP. Good to see him fighting his way back through the field to finish in the top 10 after all. Next time he puts it all together I'm sure. ;)

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Zaphod
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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Zaphod »

Nachlauf wrote: Next time he puts it all together I'm sure. ;)

Hey Rocky !!, watch me pull a rabbit out my hat !............this time for sure !

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Seriously though..........what a shame !, I kept thinking it was Lorenzo ! I couldn't believe it and had to keep double checking I was seeing number 11 on the front............thought he was finally going to turn his luck around.

Shame.
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coyote
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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by coyote »

CLX wrote:One was a normal overtaking manuvre, the other involved commiting a mistake and correcting it/returning to racing line without any regard for possible nearby competitors.

They are quite different to me.
You mean one was a reckless overtaking move cutting in to the space of the overtakee without any regard and one was a normal (succesful if Espargaro acts properly) defense of position after a mistake?

Even still I think Simo's penalty was nip and tuck.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by coyote »

Zaphod wrote:That's how I see it as well, although if I wanted to stick my own opinion on it, Pedrosa had his back wheel off the ground, counter steering and the bike nearly upright, trying for a an ever diminishing gap on a line that at best meant Sic was going to end up in the dirt.

The key for me there, is some are now taking the line that Pol was going for a gap that wasn't there...........

I'd like to know why in one incident the rider on the inside was right in one instance, and in the other is the fool ?
If were still comparing the Simo-Dani incident to this, Dani was braking at the absolute limit in his line inside meaning he couldn't possibly try to make any adjustments to his line. Simo decides to cut in front of Dani and try to hit the apex but he overestimates his position to Dani and isn't far enough ahead, takes Danis front away and there you go. Had Simo taken a line half a meter from the apex they would've probably both made the corner and he would've emerged ahead out of it.

Here Pol sees the opportunity and tries to get ahead before the transition to the right hander. He gets half/3/4 of his bike alongside Marquez while Marq is all the time taking his line towards the normal line, which is as inside as possible. At this point Espargaro should've seen there was no way he was going to make it without hitting Marquez and rolled off the throttle, bide his time, take Marquez on the straight and get onto the podium. He didn't, miscalculated and ended up in the gravel trap. Had he been slightly ahead towards the end of the corner, Marquez would've seen him and never taken the inside (or he would've hit Espargaros side and been at fault obviously.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Rossifumi »

coyote wrote:
You mean one was a reckless overtaking move cutting in to the space of the overtakee without any regard and one was a normal (succesful if Espargaro acts properly) defense of position after a mistake?

Even still I think Simo's penalty was nip and tuck.
are you doing this just to get a reaction? or you really think that if someone has run wide and lost speed that the normal thing to do is immediately cut to the racing line into someone coming through on the normal racing line at racing speed leaving the rider coming through nowhere to go? There would be a lot more accidents if this was the normal response to running wide. Espargaro was on the normal racing line and was alongside Marquez - how do you expect him to act in order to 'act properly'? what do you expect him to do - get off the track completely? I don't think it was malicious on Marqeuz' part but it was careless, dangerous and avoidable.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by rick »

coyote wrote:Adding to the point that we've already seen Espargaro all over teh place in the last 2 laps of Estoril, making many "doomed" moves which forces Marquez to avoid him. I take it he was doing no wrong then and it was just great racing? Now that Marquez shuts the door and Espargaro decides to ride through him it's Marquez fault?
Espargo rode through him ?

No, Espargo was there, Marquez hit him

If you leave a gap expect someone to fill it.

Marquez' corner exit speed sucked after that save and he was well wide, Espargo filled the gap rapidly and was on the normal racing line, remember, Marc had gone well off line with that save. Did Marc get caught out by the speed at which Pol appeared at that point of the track ? Possibly, although it's possible in that instant Marquez just tried a bit of bluff too and didn't stand the bike up, hoping Pol would roll out of the throttle.

My first reaction was it's Marquez who should have avoided contact and the accident and I still feel that's the case.
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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by coyote »

Rossifumi wrote:
coyote wrote:
You mean one was a reckless overtaking move cutting in to the space of the overtakee without any regard and one was a normal (succesful if Espargaro acts properly) defense of position after a mistake?

Even still I think Simo's penalty was nip and tuck.
or you really think that if someone has run wide and lost speed that the normal thing to do is immediately cut to the racing line into someone coming through on the normal racing line at racing speed leaving the rider coming through nowhere to go? There would be a lot more accidents if this was the normal response to running wide. Espargaro was on the normal racing line and was alongside Marquez - how do you expect him to act in order to 'act properly'? what do you expect him to do - get off the track completely? I don't think it was malicious on Marqeuz' part but it was careless, dangerous and avoidable.
The normal thing to do after running wide is definitely regroup in the fastest manner possible, usually by squirting it into the racing line. If I had to estimate, I've seen probably 300-500 different occasions where the leader going wide and does this forcing the follower to stand up instead of getting their fronts taken away. It has happened in that corner alone too many times to count. Of course it's different if the leader sees another rider in the space he's about to take, this would also usually mean the follower has gotten ahead and "owns" the space now.

What Espargaro needed to do? Roll off the throttle as soon as he saw he wasn't going to make it ahead. For these guys it's not exactly heroics.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Rossifumi »

coyote wrote:

The normal thing to do after running wide is definitely regroup in the fastest manner possible, usually by squirting it into the racing line. If I had to estimate, I've seen probably 300-500 different occasions where the leader going wide and does this forcing the follower to stand up instead of getting their fronts taken away. It has happened in that corner alone too many times to count. Of course it's different if the leader sees another rider in the space he's about to take, this would also usually mean the follower has gotten ahead and "owns" the space now.

What Espargaro needed to do? Roll off the throttle as soon as he saw he wasn't going to make it ahead. For these guys it's not exactly heroics.
Espargaro is sufficiently alongside that Marquez should leave at least a bike width and not move right to the kerb; just like the Luthi incident at Qatar.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by coyote »

rick wrote:
coyote wrote:Adding to the point that we've already seen Espargaro all over teh place in the last 2 laps of Estoril, making many "doomed" moves which forces Marquez to avoid him. I take it he was doing no wrong then and it was just great racing? Now that Marquez shuts the door and Espargaro decides to ride through him it's Marquez fault?

If you leave a gap expect someone to fill it.

Marquez' corner exit speed sucked after that save and he was well wide, Espargo filled the gap rapidly and was on the normal racing line, remember, Marc had gone well off line with that save. Did Marc get caught out by the speed at which Pol appeared at that point of the track ? Possibly, although it's possible in that instant Marquez just tried a bit of bluff too and didn't stand the bike up, hoping Pol would roll out of the throttle.
No, if you leave a gap try to protect your position as best as you can. If you see someone in the process of filling the gap before you can fill it, make the necessary adjustments to avoid that person. We never see riders make a mistake like this, run wide, and not take the fastest possible line through the arcing line later in the corner if possible just because of politeness towards other riders. It's a war out there, nothing is given without a fight.

After looking at it numerous times I do believe Marquez saw him at the last absolute moment before cutting to the inside line, far too late to do anything about it.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by coyote »

Rossifumi wrote:
coyote wrote:

The normal thing to do after running wide is definitely regroup in the fastest manner possible, usually by squirting it into the racing line. If I had to estimate, I've seen probably 300-500 different occasions where the leader going wide and does this forcing the follower to stand up instead of getting their fronts taken away. It has happened in that corner alone too many times to count. Of course it's different if the leader sees another rider in the space he's about to take, this would also usually mean the follower has gotten ahead and "owns" the space now.

What Espargaro needed to do? Roll off the throttle as soon as he saw he wasn't going to make it ahead. For these guys it's not exactly heroics.
Espargaro is sufficiently alongside that Marquez should leave at least a bike width and not move right to the kerb; just like the Luthi incident at Qatar.
But he say he didn't see Espargaro there and I believe him to the point, where he was about to take the inside line. At that point I agree Marquez probably saw him there, but there was too little reaction time for him to change direction.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Rossifumi »

coyote wrote: But he say he didn't see Espargaro there and I believe him ....
I believe him too but it's not a very strong defence.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Squidpuppet »

Japhrodisiac wrote:Ben will have sufficient levels of Red Mist now to push him forward for the next part of the season. I really think he was in for a podium today, and it would be interesting to see the lap times comparo between he and the leaders after he returned to the track, finishing in 11th, only 2.8 sec back from Nicky. A nice Barbera-esque pass on Barbera too.
I was pulling for Ben to turn it around this weekend with a WIN! I was pumped when he was pushing aggressively and fighting at the front. Sadly, what I suspected might happen, did happen. He overtried.

More worrying though, are his lap times. I dont know how much damage was done to the bike, but once he got back underway, he was over a half second off the pace. His charge through only looked impressive because of who he was passing. Worried.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Squidpuppet »

Cam D wrote:
Japhrodisiac wrote:Ben will have sufficient levels of Red Mist now to push him forward for the next part of the season. I really think he was in for a podium today, and it would be interesting to see the lap times comparo between he and the leaders after he returned to the track, finishing in 11th, only 2.8 sec back from Nicky. A nice Barbera-esque pass on Barbera too.
10th - he was doing high 43's and then low 44's. Pretty much the same as the guys at the front (Jorge was all 43's from lap 8). Ben was quite a bit faster than Rossi, Bautista, Bradl and Hayden. He was 1 - 1.5sec a lap quicker than Hayden. Stoners laps from 1/2 race were all between 43.7 to 44.3 so he was pretty consistent.
Cam, look at those lap times again. He was FAR off the leaders pace. Sadly.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Nachlauf »

Squidpuppet wrote:Cam, look at those lap times again. He was FAR off the leaders pace. Sadly.
What? How is that "far off the pace"? He was basically doing 43s like the leaders after his tires were clean again and he had shaken off the dust. Of course he had a few 44s in there, because he was rolling up to the backmarkers, who were driving their own races. With a clean race I'm sure he could have made 43s all race. And if you check his FP results on softs (FP3 and maybe FP2 although I'm not so sure about that) he put up these times in long stints continuously even in hotter conditions.

If you need slam him do it for his tumble. But his pace was fine imho.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Squidpuppet »

Marquez is a liar.

In two interviews he said he didnt see Pol was there. Watch the replay from the front shot (bikes coming AT camera). Marc clearly lifts the bike and braces himslef for the impact while maintaining throttle. He could have shut the throttle and conceded the position, or left the line available to Pol.

If you leave the racing line, for any reason, it is your responsibility to safely re-enter. Pol was just carrying on, ON the racing line, through an open door.

The pass on Iannone was pure shit too. Watch that one from the helicopter. Iannone saved himself. He anticipated exactly what Marc did, slowed and veered to give himself a place to brake without hitting Marc. Had Iannone NOT executed that brilliant avoidance tactic, he would have smashed into Marcs rear tire.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by MiniNinjaMk5 »

To be honest, I think these things are always going to be a little subjective, with people seeing different things of the same incident. Hell, I have seen far worse moves, and seen people defending them; I once read of someone defending the Capirossi -> Harada championship winning 'pass' in 250 from years ago. Short of pulling out a gun and shooting Harada dead, there was no way that Capirossi's passing move could have been more belligerent. But, there we go, the wonders of subjectivity in action!

As I have said, I think a penalty on Marquez here would have been for PI and the other passing move on Luthi - not this one, which was far more scrappy. Yes it was massively aggressive from Marquez, but I would almost have likened it to the Rea/Haslam collision at Donington a few weeks ago. Something had happened to knock the riders off the desired line, the balls were thrown into the air so to speak, and in the fractions of a second that took minor misjudgements were made by both riders and there was a collision. It was amazing that Marquez stayed on - it could so easily have been different, which makes me think it might have just been a slightly mis-guided judgement call (made instinctively by Marquez) rather than anything deliberately uncaring or aggressive.

It's a shame, because it has detracted from a great race and what I will say was probably a coming of age ride by Iannone who managed to win without looking like he was beyond crashing point on every corner. And Luthi as well, who showed great aggression - that heart-rate sensor on his suit was awesome, he went up by about 20bpm on those last couple of laps!

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by CLX »

coyote wrote:
CLX wrote:One was a normal overtaking manuvre, the other involved commiting a mistake and correcting it/returning to racing line without any regard for possible nearby competitors.

They are quite different to me.
You mean one was a reckless overtaking move cutting in to the space of the overtakee without any regard and one was a normal (succesful if Espargaro acts properly) defense of position after a mistake?

Even still I think Simo's penalty was nip and tuck.

Dive bombing down the inside and completing the move after a bump and ride that knocked your competitor down is reckless, IMO. Simo was as hard as possible, but he wasn't dishonest or anything like that. Marquez today was half stupid half this is MY turf. I don't think he should have recived a penalty, which is why this to me it seems as retroactive for his moves since Qatar or possibly Phillip Island 2011 (as mentioned by T. Moody in his twitter, and I agree with).

All in all, the stewards have opened a can of worms. Better set it straight and shut it tight before it contaminates the paddock. In the meantime, Marquez could use some chill pills before he gets hurt again. How many times can you bash your head and get away with it?

----

The most important lesson form the weekend is, IMO, Honda need to sort their bike ASAP. Currently, it is impossible to knock Lorenzo off 1st or 2nd and at least 20 points per GP. They will need a lot of 1-2s to get things back under controle. And they will need Bautista and Bradl to get in his way as well, like the Tech 3 guys have done.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Squidpuppet »

Nachlauf wrote:
Squidpuppet wrote:Cam, look at those lap times again. He was FAR off the leaders pace. Sadly.
What? How is that "far off the pace"? He was basically doing 43s like the leaders after his tires were clean again and he had shaken off the dust. Of course he had a few 44s in there, because he was rolling up to the backmarkers, who were driving their own races. With a clean race I'm sure he could have made 43s all race. And if you check his FP results on softs (FP3 and maybe FP2 although I'm not so sure about that) he put up these times in long stints continuously even in hotter conditions.

If you need slam him do it for his tumble. But his pace was fine imho.
I am not slamming him for anything, in fact, I am rooting for him. That wont prevent me from acknowledging facts though.

Lets look at average lap times. For Jorge I will include all laps except the first. For ben I will include all laps except the first, or his crash lap. I WILL include his lap immediately following the crash because it was his second fastest lap of the race (with dusty tires). Ben had no odd lap times due to passing backmarkers. He can (and did) easily pass any CRT on any straight. Passing Hector and Karel was no big feat as they were both way over a second slower than him. His faster times where actually when he was pushing through traffic, and his spread is pretty damn motronomic.

Jorges average lap was 1'43.318. Bens average lap 1'43.970. He was .652 off the leaders pace. Thats 15.648 seconds behind Jorge. He would have finished seventh, 2 seconds behind Alvaro and 2 seconds ahead of Rossi.

I dont know how much damage was done to his bike, but he wasnt fast after the crash. I like Ben, will continue to root for him, but I wont ignore the numbers.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Gustav O »

Dropping a few tenths per lap is much easier if staying with the leading group than coming from behind and having to race on your own while over taking slower bikes, riders etc.
Maybe it wouldn´t have ended with him on the box but I think he would have been better than 7th had he not gone off the track.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Squidpuppet »

coyote wrote:[
You mean one was a reckless overtaking move cutting in to the space of the overtakee without any regard and one was a normal (succesful if Espargaro acts properly) defense of position after a mistake?

Even still I think Simo's penalty was nip and tuck.
Yeah, Marc was "defending" a space already occupied by Pol, you know, that space called the racing line, the space Marc left.

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Re: 2012 Round 5 Catalunya Race Topic **Spoilers**

Post by Squidpuppet »

Gustav O wrote:Dropping a few tenths per lap is much easier if staying with the leading group than coming from behind and having to race on your own while over taking slower bikes, riders etc.
Maybe it wouldn´t have ended with him on the box but I think he would have been better than 7th had he not gone off the track.
Agreed. I aint knocking the guy at all. I was just responding to Cam when he said that Ben had the pace of the leaders. Ben and Dani had nearly identical lap times on lap two. Then Dani improved his time by almost 4 tenths on lap 3. Ben tried to not only match that, but pass Dani. Too much too soon. After that he never got near the 1'42s that Dani and Jorge ran for a while. I hope he gets things sorted.

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