2012 - Sepang II

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class

Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Nachlauf on Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:22 pm

RatsMC wrote:Barbera might, I repeat: might, be better than I estimated but he is nowhere near as fast as Hayden.

Hm, last season Barbera often fought for track position with Nicky. I'd say they are roughly equally fast. But obviously Nicky is a lot more experienced and shows much more consistency. I'd say there is no big difference in speed, but Nicky is always gonna come out on top in the championship. Unless Barbera can learn to get consistent without going any slower that is, but even then I'd put my money on Nicky.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Gustav O on Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:30 pm

Rossi:
6 x 2:01-times
27 x 2:02-times
5 x 2:03-times

Barbera:
4 x 2:01times
8 x 2:02-times
21 x 2:03-times
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Tourn46 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:39 pm

Nakamoto says the M1 is better than the Honda overall...

Nothing like getting the excuses in early!
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Gustav O on Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:16 pm

Tourn46 wrote:Nakamoto says the M1 is better than the Honda overall...

Nothing like getting the excuses in early!

When, where, how?
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Tourn46 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:29 pm

Gustav O wrote:
Tourn46 wrote:Nakamoto says the M1 is better than the Honda overall...

Nothing like getting the excuses in early!

When, where, how?


It's on GPOne... apparently he said that the M1 is the bike to beat this year. Maybe Lorenzo's race simulation was frightening afterall?
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby chc-pr on Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:16 pm

Gustav O wrote:I really like Barbera, he si a bit of a nutter but that is part of the fun, but he has always had problems with consistency. He is fast but irratic and I doubt he will beat Hayden or Rossi when the season is done and dusted.

From my own (relatively low level) experience, trying to push something beyond its envelope tends in and of itself to cause erratic times as the vehicle can behave differently each lap. When I got more competitive equipment my lap times became very much more consistent. Just a something I feel should be considered before downplaying Babera's efforts
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Gustav O on Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:42 pm

chc-pr wrote:From my own (relatively low level) experience, trying to push something beyond its envelope tends in and of itself to cause erratic times as the vehicle can behave differently each lap. When I got more competitive equipment my lap times became very much more consistent. Just a something I feel should be considered before downplaying Babera's efforts

I completely agree, and as I said I like Barbera and hope he can get more consistent and get better equipment and mix it up even more with the more established riders.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Squidpuppet on Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:43 pm

RatsMC wrote:[Hayden has had the best results of anyone on the 800cc Ducati except Stoner and Rossi and he nearly matched Rossi. There is no evidence that anyone will do any better than him on the bike..


Nicky has actually outperformed Rossi on the 800 Duc. 7th with 163 points in 2010 vs Rossis 7th with 139 points in 2011.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby RatsMC on Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:57 pm

Guys, you really didn't take much time to read carefully what I wrote and instead all picked out single lines to respond to.


First, I started with Rossi and Hayden have been running very close together. From this, you have to assume one of two things: Rossi and Hayden are very closely matched in skill or there is something about the bike they are on that limits them to a very similar time.

So, if Barbera is consistently beating Hayden, he would almost certainly be beating Rossi as well and you have to assume one of two things based on your previous assumption: Barbera is on a better machine or Barbera is better than Hayden which also means that Barbera is on a better machine that Rossi or is a better rider than Rossi.

That Barbera has occasionally beaten Hayden is a stretch. Barbera finished ahead of Hayden once last season.


JanBros wrote:not entirly an objective post, is it :?: ;)



I'm not sure why I am expected to be completely objective while others here adamantly defend their right to be biased because they are fans of Rider X.

However, I'll stand by my statement as objective since there is no measure that would show Barbera as faster than Hayden.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Albert on Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:32 pm

RatsMC wrote:I think - and I give Albert a huge nod for this - neither of us are talking about Ducati fixing their bike or Rossi running at the front (though both of us would love to see this again). What we are talking about is riders able to take advantage of the strengths they have to close the gap to the front. There seems to be more variables through race distance that will come in to play that we haven't seen in years. Do you take the soft and run away, hoping that you can be easy on the tire for the second half or do you take the hard and hope the guy who made a break wasted his tire getting there? Racing basically.


Pretty much says what I was thinking but couldn't find adequate words!

With a few stand out exceptions I think (again - these is my own thoughts) that the 800 era was largely boring when compared to other classes that have been and gone.

One thing that happened was the rise to prominence (and undeniable Alien status!) of Casey Stoner.
I'm not going to get into any arguements over this because I'm certain that others will disagree with me, call it whichever way you will, the 800 Ducati made his name for him!
This was then firmly cemented by his Honda performances and by Rossi's subsequent failure to get to grips with the Ducati.
(Any further comments in this vein will be taken to Motomania's "Stoner VS Rossi, the never ending debate" thread! :lol: )

I hope we see some closer racing in the coming season because if we don't we stand the chance that it will be branded as boring.
Some of my work colleagues who don't follow two wheeled sport as closely as others have come to me on certain Monday mornings and often said, "Well it was quite good until XYZ got away and then it was as monotonous as F1! Who won, cos I changed channels after half an hour!"

Those people are exceptions -- but on numerous Sunday afternoons there are many others, just like them, sitting in armchairs everywhere around the world!
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby JanBros on Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:59 pm

@ Rat's : of course everyone is allowed to have favourites , why else should we watch ? (well, I don't exactly have favourites, it's more that I dislike som :oops: )

But when it comes to comparing riders, one should be able to set that aside. Personaly , I thinck this hole Rossi-Hayden-Barbera comparison is a bit silly. IF you do want to do it, it would be more fair to compare each other's debut year on the Ducati, and still : you'd have to take into account the amount of Honda's, Kawasaki's and Suzuki's that were on track. It's just not easy.

But if I'm looking at it "objective" : there is absolutly no evidence Hayden is faster than Barbera, nor the other way arround. But saying "Rossi and Hayden are very closely matched in skill" on testing times is a bit far fetched for me. There is definitly evidence Rossi is the better one compared to Hayden. Maybe not on the Ducati, but hey, you can only go as fast as your confidence let's you ;)
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby RatsMC on Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:11 pm

I'm struggling here because people are not only mis-reading what I am writing but are putting words in my mouth. I have never said Hayden and Rossi are closely matched in skill, I said they are setting very similar times. I also said that there is no evidence to support the claim that Barbera is better than Hayden (same thing JanBros said).
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Sloth27 on Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:43 am

I wasn't really trying to compare Barbera - Rossi - Hayden on the Ducati, I just think it will be interesting to see if Barbera can mix it with those guys given his bike should be inferior. Consistency is his problem, he has as much outright speed as anyone.

For me, Hayden is just stuck in a rut and would benefit greatly from moving on to something new. He's never really looked happy at Ducati.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby L34 on Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:57 am

What is clear after these Sepang tests is that Yamaha are not missing Valentino and JB as far as their developing goes.
Jorge and Ben should be congratulated (as well as the Yamaha engineering team) for developing a bike which
so far in testing looks very fast and consistant.

My gut feeling is that VR will be fighting at the very pointy end this year.
If Hector can be 3/4 of second behind the Honda, IMHO I'm sure that VR can more than match
HBs' times in race conditions.

When is the next test and will ALL the GP bikes be present?

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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Albert on Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:22 am

I'm waiting to see who copes with the Bridgestones better and who adapts the bike to them easier.
According to reports from the majority of MotoGP journos virtually everyone is experiencing chatter. (Am I reading that correctly Krop?)

When you read the comments from the riders regarding tyre wear during their race simulations it starts to look like things are gonna get interesting!
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby JanBros on Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:36 pm

RatsMC wrote:I'm struggling here because people are not only mis-reading what I am writing but are putting words in my mouth. I have never said Hayden and Rossi are closely matched in skill


sorry :oops: , I read that post again and indeed you say "you'd have to assume ..."
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Albert on Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:59 pm

RatsMC wrote:I'm not sure why I am expected to be completely objective while others here adamantly defend their right to be biased because they are fans of Rider X.


Not a criticism of this site in anyway - more of Forums in general -----

---- it's typical that we have our own opinions, and often realise that others have their own, but it's a strange fact that members of many Sites/Forums expect their Admin and Mods to be completely impartial/objective!
Krop, Rusty and Rats are certain to have their own preferences, but usually refrain from mentioning them to try to retain the air of respectable impartiality/objectivity!

(Not always an easy task!) :D
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Cam D on Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:20 am

Didn't notice the front brake guard before...

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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby sir_nj on Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:57 am

Cam D wrote:Didn't notice the front brake guard before...


that's the best picture I have seen of it but if you look carefully at the shots right from the beginning of this test it is there. When I first noticed it I started to look to see who else had one, so far, haven't seen any. If that is the case then that would be quite interesting. Not sure if a single thin rod like that is going to be that useful though, especially if one bike is leaned over they are likely to be on a different plane to the rod and as such it will do nothing.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby WayneG on Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:48 am

sir_nj wrote:When I first noticed it I started to look to see who else had one, so far, haven't seen any.


I'm not sure if they all running them in testing but they are a new requirement for the 2012 season along with rear red rain lights. There was a pic tweeted by Alex Briggs of Rossi's guard so I assume everyone has them installed by now.

Here's the pic of Rossi's bike. https://twitter.com/#!/Alex__Briggs/media/slideshow?url=http%3A%2F%2Flockerz.com%2Fs%2F189105344
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby RatsMC on Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:47 am

L34 wrote:My gut feeling is that VR will be fighting at the very pointy end this year.
If Hector can be 3/4 of second behind the Honda, IMHO I'm sure that VR can more than match
HBs' times in race conditions



This is sort of what I'm trying to sort out: if Barbera can be this close why aren't the factory riders further up. There is something going on with the new bike that isn't with the old one. What happens if you put Rossi back on the old one? If Rossi can be expected to be 3/4 of a second faster than Barbera on the same bike Seems a reasonable assumption, no?), that puts him right near the front. So, why is the new and supposedly better bike not there?


When is the next test and will ALL the GP bikes be present?


Qatar and everyone should be there if they plan to race the first round.



Cam D wrote:Didn't notice the front brake guard before...


I thought you were talking about the brake rotor or caliper. I spent several minutes trying to figure out WTF you were talking about :lol:
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Nachlauf on Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:01 pm

You know, maybe Barbera looks closer than he really is? Could well be, that the factory riders (all of them, Honda, Yam and Duc) did just test without attacking laptimes. At least the Yamaha guys did so, which also partly explains how Dovi got a faster time. After testing parts Lorenzo did his long stint to check the tires. And Ben had planned to attack the laptimes after testing was done but scrapped that after his little crash and left early instead.

Also, there is a Qatar test again? I thought they had removed Qatar from the test schedule prior to last year?
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Gustav O on Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:27 pm

As the famous saying goes. Testing is testing and racing is racing..
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby lebowski on Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:17 pm

I hate to say it but that Honda is a beautiful bit of kit. The level of finish is impeccable.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby TwoStroke Institute on Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:00 pm

It's also grown a shroud over the bottom exhaust and the underside of the top exhaust appears to have greater shrouding.
lebowski wrote:I hate to say it but that Honda is a beautiful bit of kit. The level of finish is impeccable.


Image

Look even better when you get this close to them :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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