Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on tra

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Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on track in 2011-12?

Yes
20
56%
No
16
44%
 
Total votes: 36

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Albert
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by Albert »

JanBros wrote: I don't agree.

The alu frame mounts on the back and not the front of the rear cylindre head, making it much longer. So one has to conclude it is a totaly different frame within the same concept (a "frameless" bike).
I agree with what you are saying Jan -- I just don't see it as a "Twin Spar" in the sense that we understand a "traditional" twin spar to be!

In think Tom 's made the best call! 8-)
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JanBros
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by JanBros »

Albert wrote: I agree with what you are saying Jan -- I just don't see it as a "Twin Spar" in the sense that we understand a "traditional" twin spar to be!

In think Tom 's made the best call! 8-)
agree, definitly not a twin spar .
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Faster1
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by Faster1 »

I believe that they will ,, but I also believe that with the "head-start" that Honda, Yamaha and possibly Suzuki have,, The Ducati will not be a Podium bike.

I also think that Ducati will go in the direction that Rossi wants, right or wrong, it doesn't matter at this point. They pretty much have gambled their entire racing program on him, killing "factory" involvement in all other series, so their are not going to stop now.
.


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Lifelong Yamaha Racing fan, but currently riding a Duc,,,, don't tell anyone 8-)


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tom
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by tom »

I think Ducati are locked in to being different. I think they have this year to try to get the current design right, if that fails they will throw the current GP12 out the window and use next year as a development year starting with a blank sheet of paper and a new non twin spar design (they will come up with something different). If that doesn't work they will leave MotoGP at the end of next year.

The only uncertainty I see is if there is major changes to the control tire rule. That is about the only thing I could see convincing Ducati to stay beyond next year if they are not successful.
Last edited by tom on Mon Sep 19, 2011 3:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kropotkin
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by Kropotkin »

Yes. At Valencia. And later this week in a test.
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tom
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by tom »

Wow!

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Squidpuppet
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by Squidpuppet »

Kropotkin wrote:Yes. At Valencia.
Race or test?

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RatsMC
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by RatsMC »

Well, I'm admitting I was wrong on this one. I can only take this as a sign that Ducati have completely lost any sense of direction and are floundering.

These are clearly not the people you want on your side in the Zombie Apocalypse.

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ipso
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by ipso »

RatsMC wrote:Well, I'm admitting I was wrong on this one. I can only take this as a sign that Ducati have completely lost any sense of direction and are floundering.

These are clearly not the people you want on your side in the Zombie Apocalypse.
LOL. Worded perfectly. And I too was wrong.

Perhaps Ducati are the Zombie Apocalypse. :lol:

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Albert
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by Albert »

RatsMC wrote:Well, I'm admitting I was wrong on this one. I can only take this as a sign that Ducati have completely lost any sense of direction and are floundering.

These are clearly not the people you want on your side in the Zombie Apocalypse.
--------- and the other side of the coin is - they are giving Rossi what he has asked for!

I hope it's rather like when Furasawa gave him the "growler" motor he preferred!
Look where THAT got Yamaha!
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Squidpuppet
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by Squidpuppet »

Albert wrote:
RatsMC wrote:Well, I'm admitting I was wrong on this one. I can only take this as a sign that Ducati have completely lost any sense of direction and are floundering.

These are clearly not the people you want on your side in the Zombie Apocalypse.
--------- and the other side of the coin is - they are giving Rossi what he has asked for!

I hope it's rather like when Furasawa gave him the "growler" motor he preferred!
Look where THAT got Yamaha!
What if (when) it doesnt work. Man, the fingerpointing could get nasty.

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Kropotkin
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by Kropotkin »

Squidpuppet wrote:
Kropotkin wrote:Yes. At Valencia.
Race or test?
Test. Probably needs different engine mountings again.
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Albert
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by Albert »

Squidpuppet wrote:
What if (when) it doesnt work. Man, the fingerpointing could get nasty.
This is probably the biggest risk of all SP.
If you haven't already seen it then read David's report from the front page.

If it's being made by FTR to Ducati specifications there's a possibility it may not work! (as intended!)

What they need to do is give FTR a motor and just simply LET them do their own designing around it!
It's what they do - and they seem to do it well!



Failing that they they need to get hold of the letter sent to Mrs Trellis that WayneG mentioned! ;)
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RatsMC
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by RatsMC »

Albert, a lot of people are saying exactly the same thing and there is certainly something to the idea that FTR must know more about building a twin-spar frame than Ducati but this is exactly what I have been ranting about: does anyone actually believe that FTR have the capabilities to go up against Honda and Yamaha in the factories own backyard? FTR could be the very best out there among racebike frame building but they simply do not have the experience or engineering horsepower of the factories.

Imagine another factory (any factory) taking a radical new approach to their frame. At the start of the season, no one would be surprised if it just didn't work very well. IF the problems continued at the end of the season but progress was made, most people would assume that is par for the course (as long as Rossi isn't the rider). Steady progress over a couple of seasons, bringing the new frame up to the level where it was winning races would seem like a success story.

However, this situation is radically different. This new and completely different frame is an afterthought. The factory didn't spend months or years planning this approach and they aren't intending to take a couple of years refining it.

This is a shotgun approach to top-level racing engineering.

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Oscar
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by Oscar »

RatsMC wrote:This is a shotgun approach to top-level racing engineering.
And a shotgun is what you finally take to the poor old wounded dog to put him out of his misery.

IF Ducati finally abandon the stressed-engine concept, the GP '09 and '10 - at the very least - are going to end up in history as a kindred soul of the Honda 350/4 that Hailwood rode ('the Beast').
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by sir_nj »

RatsMC wrote:However, this situation is radically different. This new and completely different frame is an afterthought. The factory didn't spend months or years planning this approach and they aren't intending to take a couple of years refining it.

This is a shotgun approach to top-level racing engineering.
Not totally sure about that, does anyone really know just how long ago that Ducati actually started designing the frame, it might be a lot longer than we think (maybe even last year?)

I am also wondering how many iterations is it going to take to get one that works well enough to be competitive and if Ducati and Rossi have enough patience left in each other. If you are right about the shotgun approach and they only have one shotgun it will be interesting to see who gets it first when the music stops.

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yzr750
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by yzr750 »

Oscar wrote:
IF Ducati finally abandon the stressed-engine concept, the GP '09 and '10 - at the very least - are going to end up in history as a kindred soul of the Honda 350/4 that Hailwood rode ('the Beast').
I think you'll find that the bike you are talking about was the 500/4, the 350 he rode rode was quite a sweet handling bike (and soon superseded by the 297/6) , whereas the 500, which was damn near identical apart from the capacity, was poor.
They even had a couple of frames made in England for it (see any parallels?) by Ken Sprayson of Reynolds, and Colin Lyster, but these where only tested and not raced, as they where found to be equally as poor. In later years it was concluded that the suspension and tyres where the biggest culprits, due to the unprecedented (for the era) power output.

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RatsMC
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by RatsMC »

sir_nj wrote:
RatsMC wrote:However, this situation is radically different. This new and completely different frame is an afterthought. The factory didn't spend months or years planning this approach and they aren't intending to take a couple of years refining it.

This is a shotgun approach to top-level racing engineering.
Not totally sure about that, does anyone really know just how long ago that Ducati actually started designing the frame, it might be a lot longer than we think (maybe even last year?)

I am also wondering how many iterations is it going to take to get one that works well enough to be competitive and if Ducati and Rossi have enough patience left in each other. If you are right about the shotgun approach and they only have one shotgun it will be interesting to see who gets it first when the music stops.
Why would they have been planning a twin-spar last year? Ducati has consistently maintained that they believe in their "frameless" concept. There is absolutely no evidence or reason to believe that this is anything other than desperation.

As to how many iterations it will take, I talked to this earlier. Honda, had a far more competitive bike at the start of 2010 than Ducati have now and yet they produce something like 20 different frames and were running 4 different bikes just to figure out what was wrong with their frame. And that was after 20 years of running a twin-spar frame. Do you really believe that Ducati - with no twin-spar experience is just going to hit it out of the park, overcoming Honda's decades of experience?

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ipso
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by ipso »

HOLY COW, we have a spyshot of the new Ducati twin-spar frame. It uses the current 800cc engine.

I completely agree with Rats.

Edit – removed a bunch of stuff that has been said a bunch of times before by a bunch of people.

What would be awesome – what would be totally perfect - is if ex Honda F1 chassis personnel were still around and the HRC RC213V turned out to be a carbon fiber monocoque design (that works – with Casey on it) and Ducati show up next year with dropped jaws and their twin-spar in their hand, having completely abandoned the future. That would be the only thing that could get better about this Ducati debacle. Like in bad movies that are so bad it becomes really good.

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Albert
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by Albert »

RatsMC wrote: This new and completely different frame is an afterthought. The factory didn't spend months or years planning this approach and they aren't intending to take a couple of years refining it.

This is a shotgun approach to top-level racing engineering.
Whilst I agree with your sentiment Rats, the twin spar frame isn't technically an afterthought.
Maybe it is from Ducati's point of view, but Rossi and JB wanted one from very early on.

It's rather unfortunate that we have the ban on testing because Ducati are now in a similar situation to Nicky Hayden during his championship year in that every weekend for Nicky was a testing and development session
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tom
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by tom »

Funny how the yes vote in the pole is rapidly catching up to the no vote recently :D

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Oscar
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by Oscar »

yzr750 wrote:
Oscar wrote:
IF Ducati finally abandon the stressed-engine concept, the GP '09 and '10 - at the very least - are going to end up in history as a kindred soul of the Honda 350/4 that Hailwood rode ('the Beast').
I think you'll find that the bike you are talking about was the 500/4, the 350 he rode rode was quite a sweet handling bike (and soon superseded by the 297/6) , whereas the 500, which was damn near identical apart from the capacity, was poor.
They even had a couple of frames made in England for it (see any parallels?) by Ken Sprayson of Reynolds, and Colin Lyster, but these where only tested and not raced, as they where found to be equally as poor. In later years it was concluded that the suspension and tyres where the biggest culprits, due to the unprecedented (for the era) power output.
Aargh, now I am confused - I originally believed 'the Beast' to be the 500/4 but was corrected on that statement by a member whose knowledge is usually better than mine. Maybe we can just settle on 'Hailwood's 'the Beast' Honda'? Of whichever capacity, it remains as one of the most notorious racing bikes and the Duc looks set to join it in the pantheon of evil.
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by oldboyonrgv »

Until Colin Seeley made him a frame for it........

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Albert
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by Albert »

oldboyonrgv wrote:Until Colin Seeley made him a frame for it........
I stand to be corrected on this one - but I'm fairly sure that Mike got Ken Sprayson (of Reynolds 531 fame) to make the frame.
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Re: Will there be a physical twin-spar Ducati MotoGP bike on

Post by Squidpuppet »

ipso wrote: What would be awesome – what would be totally perfect - is if ex Honda F1 chassis personnel were still around and the HRC RC213V turned out to be a carbon fiber monocoque design (that works – with Casey on it) and Ducati show up next year with dropped jaws and their twin-spar in their hand, having completely abandoned the future. That would be the only thing that could get better about this Ducati debacle. Like in bad movies that are so bad it becomes really good.
Dude....you are just plain sinister. :lol:

It IS about the only thing left though, to really bring it to a Michael Bay level.

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