2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby warthog1 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:36 am

When JL is fit and understands the Honda he will again try to clear out I hope. It will be interesting to see if he can pull it off.
I can understand the frustration over the reduced pace.
There is something beautiful about the machines being ridden at the limit the whole race.
Rossi tried that last year and the pressure it exerted on MM was fascinating to watch. They were both dancing on the limit and testing each other in a way the paced races do not.
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby Emoo on Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:41 am

Not sure I agree with this opinion warthog1. You can live in hope regarding JL, he did it on the Ducati at times so I guess anything is possible.
Rossi pressure on Marc last year? My memory is clearly failing, when did this happen?

A win is a win whether it is a slow pace or not, if the others can't better that pace what's the issue here? I don't understand the frustration to be honest.
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby Rick650 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:08 am

Malaysian GP at Sepang?
Not sure it is a great example as my recollection is that Rossi fell off while leading by about 0.5 and coming down with something like four to go.
Trying to win by going fast at the front creates pressures for the leader as well.
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby Emoo on Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:27 am

ahhh yes Malaysia. Thanks.
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby Mikesbytes on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:27 pm

Keep seeing articles that say that Yamaha isn't that different to last year and therefor we can anticipate only a small improvement over last year

https://www.gpone.com/en/2019/03/13/motogp/rossi-a-defeat-that-is-worth-a-victory.html
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby warthog1 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:29 pm

Emoo wrote:Not sure I agree with this opinion warthog1. You can live in hope regarding JL, he did it on the Ducati at times so I guess anything is possible.
Rossi pressure on Marc last year? My memory is clearly failing, when did this happen?

A win is a win whether it is a slow pace or not, if the others can't better that pace what's the issue here? I don't understand the frustration to be honest.
Malaysian GP.
MM was at the limit trying to chase him down.
I still think he may have got there had VR not fallen, but not certain.
He was under pressure for sure.

Having read David's roundup, we may see Rins on the Suzuki try and clear out at tighter circuits.
Something to look forward to imo.
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby warthog1 on Thu Mar 14, 2019 1:37 pm

Rick650 wrote:Malaysian GP at Sepang?
Not sure it is a great example as my recollection is that Rossi fell off while leading by about 0.5 and coming down with something like four to go.
Trying to win by going fast at the front creates pressures for the leader as well.
Sure does.
He was leading by more earlier in the race. MM was working very, very hard to catch him, they both were.
I love that ultimate test of pace, endurance and tyre life.
I love the chase I love the pressure.
There is always something to be in awe of in a motogp race close or not.
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby kenup283 on Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:54 am

Mikesbytes wrote:In regards to the 5 lap sprint, this was due to Dovi's strategy. It was up to the other riders to break Dovi's strategy, if you wanted to beat Dovi in that race then you needed to get him to cook his tyres, which I'm sure the others were thinking but easier said than done

Also in regards to Dovi slowing the pace, Aprilla and KTM were closer at the end of the race than normal. How much of that was due to Aprilla and KTM developing more than Ducati etc and how much of it was due to Dovi making the race closer? ie if Dovi hadn't done that, how many seconds faster would the race of been?


looking at race time over past several years, michlin vs bridgestones, shows that the overall race time is quicker under michlins and the closness of the field is much tighter as well.

In otherwords there is no such thing as a performance trade off for show. Total rubbish. We are treated to best of both worlds.

2019 = 42'36.9" -> 15 bikes within 15 seconds from winner
2018 = 42' 34.7" -> 11 bikes within 15 sec from winner
2017 = 39'0" -> 10 bikes within 15 sec from winner (20 laps not 22)
2016 = 42'28.5" -> 6 bikes within 15 sec from winner

2015 = 42'35.7" -> 9 bikes within 15 seconds from winner
2014 = 42'40.6 -> 5 bikes within 15 seconds from winner
2013 = 42'39.8" -> 4 bikes within 15 sec from winner
2012 = 42'44.2" -> 3 bikes within 15 sec from winner

Aprilia and KTM finished this years race +9.6 sec and +12.8 sec behind the winner respectively, compared to +34.7 sec and +31.7 sec the year before.

Comparison overall race time Aprilia finished 26 sec quicker than last year, and KTM 17 sec quicker, an improvement of 1.8 sec for Aprilia and 0.8 sec for KTM if averaged across the 22 laps.
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby kenup283 on Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:24 am

Tourn46 wrote:
kenup283 wrote:
Agree. Ducatis rear spoiler is legal. The key is that all the rules on aero fall under the section on "bodywork"

Ducatis latests exploties are not fitted to the body work, so they can do whatever they want. The idea of retroactive action for somthing alowed by the rules would be a low for the sport.


Latest is that it appears that Aprillia were not allowed to use a similar device on their bikes unless it was wet conditions (see "rain diffuser" run by Yamaha last year), however, Ducati were allowed to run theirs in the dry... hence the protests. Kind of makes more sense as to why the other factories are opposing the Ducati gadget.

Still don't know who is right and who is wrong... I am not sure I believe Ducati regarding the tyre cooling personally... but also slightly admire them for pushing the boundaries.

https://www.motorsport.com/motogp/news/aprilia-ducati-winglet-qatar-illegal/4351585/



Very interesting.. thanks for the link. From what I read there the teams certainly do have a case to be upset over the handling of this. The rules released March 1st align with the rain deflectors being used in wet only when attached to the body work. Hence Ducati, or should I say the yamaha, soultion can be run in dry since it does not attach to body work and does not fall under aero regulations.

Its a shame that the technical directors opinion given just one week prior is contrary to what ended up in the rules. Which suggests at best that Aprilia, KTM and others were left out of the discussions in MSMA, or worse that Ducati deliberately left this clarification unspoken until the last possible chance when it would be too late for others to respond effectively before the first race. If so one could make the case that Ducati are not acting as chair of MSMA but want to be an independent trying to get a leg up on the rest of field rather than seeking out clarity in rules.

Its spliting hairs but its consequence of the poor thought put into these rules in the first place. Even the rain deflector rules as currently written does not account for changing conditons, for example, if a race starts wet and then riders changes tires last minute or switch bikes, the team must also change the fairing to avoid from being disqualifed if by accident they leave the rain deflector in place when fitted with dry tires. Hence the beauty of the Yamaha/Ducati design is it is not part of the body work and circumvents this completely, meaning it can be run in dry or wet.

In end it was clear on March 1st that what was used by Ducati would be allowed, it just was different from what was said 1 week prior, and Ducati's finger prints were all over suggesting they acted on their own and not through the MSMA. I really do not know what the protocol is for MSMA or even who all the members are, but it certainly won't make for happy working environment or trying to gain any common consensus from here on other issues. Perhaps for the better.
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby Mikesbytes on Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:39 am

thanks for all that work digging thru the data kenup283, that makes it really clear that Aprilia and KTM have made significant progress

If Aprillia and KTM had finished the same number of seconds behind the winner in 2018 they would of come 9th and 10th vs the 10th and 12th that they came this year, so the closer field hasn't handicapped them that much this year as the majority of that additional tightness was behind them. So it kinda looks like there will be more top 10 results this year but a dry podium is still well out of their reach
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby Fingernails on Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:27 am

Posted in wrong forum. Sorry.
Last edited by Fingernails on Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby Tourn46 on Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:13 am

Fingernails wrote:Three races with exactly the same results in positions 1-7. That's ... notable.


Say what?
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby Fingernails on Mon Mar 18, 2019 9:25 am

Tourn46 wrote:
Fingernails wrote:Three races with exactly the same results in positions 1-7. That's ... notable.


Say what?


I posted here by mistake, not in the WSBK forum. Sorry.

Mod: Please delete these messages from here?
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby hdot on Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:17 pm

No, we will keep the messages visible and you will take your punishment!!!! :mrgreen:
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby Fingernails on Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:41 pm

hdot wrote:No, we will keep the messages visible and you will take your punishment!!!! :mrgreen:


<Elvis Presley>Don't be cruel!</Elvis Presley>
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby Mikesbytes on Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:43 am

I agree with Aprilia that if the Ducati spoiler is deemed illegal that Dovi and Pettrucci shouldn't loose their points

https://motomatters.com/analysis/2019/03/21/analyzing_the_ducati_aero_appeal_the.html
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby warthog1 on Sat Mar 23, 2019 2:00 am

Not sure. I don't want to see the title or even race wins decided on protest.
However where is the deterrent if there is no penalty.
If it is allowed, all the factory bikes will be forced to run something similar.
Anything that improves tyre endurance by even a small amount is too much advantage to ignore you'd think.
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby CLX on Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:34 pm

Do you guys have any clue which way it’ll go?

I just want the courtroom session to be over with ASAP.

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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby kenup283 on Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:48 pm

My thoughts are it would be something that is deemed legal at time it was raced and future use would get kicked back to the rule makers to figure out and clarify with the caviat that these guidelines get published and treated as rule supplements rather than just emails to teams.
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby hdot on Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:54 pm

It doesn't sound like any of the teams want the result of the race to be changed, which is all I care about.
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Re: 2019 R1 QATAR 10th March Losail International Circuit

Postby AJracing on Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:07 pm

Does it always have to go this far whenever there is a disagreement? I feel like this is just too much red tape for a sporting event and leaves a bitter taste with fans. Are there any alternatives to consider or is this the way it will be?
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