Jerez MotoGP test.

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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Oscar on Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:59 am

Nachlauf wrote:Imho LS11 is a bad example. Jorge could barely walk. His performance was actually surprisingly good there.


I agree, Lorenzo's condition at the end of the race certainly got my admiration for sheer dogged performance and strength of purpose; if he'd been fully fit I don't think the gap would have been anywhere near what it was. However the point I am trying to make is that Stoner played out his strategy extremely well in the face of how the race progressed, and surely it'd be hard to argue that he could have known at what point Lorenzo might physically fade, therefore he had to time his increase of speed fairly finely. That, to me, indicates that Stoner does have the ability to 'see' a race through to the flag and graduate his progress accordingly, which will be a very important factor if tyre life management becomes a factor with the new tyres.

That ability to play out the whole race mentally and make sure he was in the right place at the end (given a capable bike, obviously) has always been one of Rossi's great strengths, and his reputation for the late charge to the line was built on that - completely deservedly. I would not argue that Stoner should be seen yet to have cemented a reputation for a similar ability, but I do believe that we saw a significant change last year from his Ducati days. He now has a more flexible platform on which to demonstrate his various skills, and my contention is that he has already shown he has more arrows in his quiver than just raw speed.
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Squidpuppet on Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:04 am

Nachlauf wrote: Ultimately Jorge has still to prove if he can manage tire wear better than his rivals. I don't think that's a rested case already.


Do you mean preserve his tires well over race distance, or ride well with ruined tires?
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Cam D on Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:11 am

Hayden from GPone
"The bike was sliding a lot of fast corners at the exit, losing precious time - said 'Kentucky Kid' - The understeer is not my main problem."

".... but this is still the best Ducati I've ever driven - he said - It's easier to drive, be a lot of feedback and I can 'feel' good '.
Yamaha... Japanese for "Two dog's - One steak"- Japh the wise.
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Zaphod on Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:54 am

That bike is starting to look like Salvador Dahli is the cheif designer.

seems to depend on the point of view of the individual as to what it actually is.......
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Sloth27 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:37 am

Zaphod wrote:seems to depend on the point of view of the individual as to what it actually is.......


Actually, I'd say all the riders have a similar opinion of what it is...
:lol:
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby motogpmd on Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:46 am

Oscar wrote:That ability to play out the whole race mentally and make sure he was in the right place at the end (given a capable bike, obviously) has always been one of Rossi's great strengths, and his reputation for the late charge to the line was built on that - completely deservedly. I would not argue that Stoner should be seen yet to have cemented a reputation for a similar ability, but I do believe that we saw a significant change last year from his Ducati days. He now has a more flexible platform on which to demonstrate his various skills, and my contention is that he has already shown he has more arrows in his quiver than just raw speed.

There were strong similarities between Stoner in 2011 and Rossi at his best...

I also think Stoner had plenty in reserve most races in 2011, as he rather hinted at a few times. 2012 could turn out to be a one horse race. Stoner's practice pace at Jerez was ominous.
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby RatsMC on Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:17 am

More numbers:

>
 Stoner     
 .  39.411   
 .  39.285  .126 
 .  39.491  -.206 
 .  39.753  -.262 
 .  39.845  -.092 
 .  39.872  -.027 
 .  40.113  -.241 
 .  39.777  .336 
 .  39.645  .132 
 .  39.781  -.136 
 AVG  39.697   
 top  40.113   
 Bottom  39.285   
 Spread  0.828   
 AVG Diff  .173   



>
 Lorenzo     
 .  40.485   
 .  40.035  .450 
 .  40.345  -.310 
 .  40.336  .009 
 .  40.252  .084 
 .  40.302  -.050 
 .  40.331  -.029 
 .  40.438  -.107 
 .  40.222  .216 
 .  40.127  .095 
 .  40.316  -.189 
 .  40.374  -.058 
 .  40.547  -.173 
 .  40.612  -.065 
 .  40.317  .295 
 .  40.272  .045 
 .  40.269  .003 
 .  40.430  -.161 
 .  40.251  .179 
 .  40.271  -.020 
 .  40.465  -.194 
 .  40.118  .347 
 .  40.165  -.047 
 .  39.952  .213 
 .  40.046  -.094 
 AVG  40.291   
 top  40.612   
 Bottom  39.952   
 Spread  0.660   
 AVG Diff  .143   



>
 Pedrosa     
 .  40.349   
 .  40.014  .335 
 .  40.196  -.182 
 .  40.422  -.226 
 .  40.279  .143 
 .  40.337  -.058 
 .  40.256  .081 
 .  40.410  -.154 
 .  40.423  -.013 
 .  40.307  .116 
 .  40.150  .157 
 .  40.523  -.373 
 .  40.363  .160 
 .  40.185  .178 
 .  40.152  .033 
 .  40.349  -.197 
 .  40.537  -.188 
 .  40.672  -.135 
 .  40.540  .132 
 .  40.448  .092 
 .  40.370  .078 
 .  40.959  -.589 
 .  40.581  .378 
 .  40.036  .545 
 AVG  40.369   
 top  40.959   
 Bottom  40.014   
 Spread  0.945   
 AVG Diff  .198   



>
 Rossi     
 .  40.965   
 .  40.756  .209 
 .  40.907  -.151 
 .  40.925  -.018 
 .  40.935  -.010 
 .  41.113  -.178 
 .  40.968  .145 
 .  41.207  -.239 
 .  41.075  .132 
 .  41.196  -.121 
 .  41.174  .022 
 .  41.608  -.434 
 .  41.497  .111 
 AVG  41.102   
 top  41.608   
 Bottom  40.756   
 Spread  0.852   
 AVG Diff  .147   



**Please note that I removed 2 of Pedrosa's laps and Lorenzo's second to last lap because they were way outside the norm.


The most interesting thing to take away from this is that Rossi is just a hair behind Lorenzo in AVG Diff (the average of the difference between consecutive laps). This surprised me because Rossi's lap times typically aren't as metronomic as Stoners' or Lorenzo's


There is more information in this and I am teasing it out so be patient.


Of course, because both Stoner and Rossi didn't do long stretches, these numbers are by no means definitive and this is just a curiosity.
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby RatsMC on Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:50 am

So, through some crazy computations (take the riders best time and add the AVG diff to it, multiply by 25 for account for race distance, then subtract a variable from each lap time),, it would take Lorenzo dropping .247 seconds off his lap time in order to match Stoner's pace over race distance.


Of course, this ignore all variables that actually occur in a race but it does help to understand how consistency can play a huge part in the results.
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby motogpmd on Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:47 am

The consistency of these top guys illustrates why it is so difficult to create close racing in the current era. If a rider makes even a small mistake and loses a couple of seconds (so easy to do), there is just no way back. We saw this with Spies several times in 2011. He was just too slow over the first lap or so (as he readily acknowledges), and by the time he sorted himself out the front runners were usually uncatchable. We have seen many times a leading rider pull out just a tenth or so per lap so consistently that those following can do nothing about it. This remarkable consistency seems to be a combination of modern technology and a very high level of rider skill.
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Gustav O on Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:52 am

motogpmd wrote:The consistency of these top guys illustrates why it is so difficult to create close racing in the current era. If a rider makes even a small mistake and loses a couple of seconds (so easy to do), there is just no way back. We saw this with Spies several times in 2011. He was just too slow over the first lap or so (as he readily acknowledges), and by the time he sorted himself out the front runners were usually uncatchable. We have seen many times a leading rider pull out just a tenth or so per lap so consistently that those following can do nothing about it. This remarkable consistency seems to be a combination of modern technology and a very high level of rider skill.

What makes it even more impressive is that they do it at the very ragged edge of what is possible. You can not go much faster than that and they do it lap after lap. :shock:
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Oscar on Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:39 am

RatsMC wrote:So, through some crazy computations (take the riders best time and add the AVG diff to it, multiply by 25 for account for race distance, then subtract a variable from each lap time),, it would take Lorenzo dropping .247 seconds off his lap time in order to match Stoner's pace over race distance.


I suspect that that is about what it was last year - which possibly accounts for Lorenzo's fabulously determined starts, which were something I looked forward to each race. God help me for saying this (and it's starting to grate a bit now, as did the old 'Rossi here, Rossi there, Rossi everywhere' thing) - but Nick Harris and Gavin Emmett's continual references to Stoner 'running away if he gets to the front' commentary has a grain of truth in it - or did, for last year, anyway. I, for one, am wishing they'd leave it out, because it kind of kills off the possible interest in the race too early, as if it's all over once Stoner gets 'there or thereabouts'. Time for some hill-plunging, methinks.
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby corinthian on Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:23 pm

Oscar wrote:
Nachlauf wrote:Imho LS11 is a bad example. Jorge could barely walk. His performance was actually surprisingly good there.


I agree, Lorenzo's condition at the end of the race certainly got my admiration for sheer dogged performance and strength of purpose; if he'd been fully fit I don't think the gap would have been anywhere near what it was.

Remember that Stoner was also quite badly injured for that race (neck): http://www.twowheelsblog.com/post/6859/ ... eck-injury. Lorenzo tried to pull the 'I was injured' card at the time and got called out by some here in Spain on the fact that so was Stoner.
[Edited to add pic of Stoner's fall at Assen which caused the neck injury: http://www.moto-station.com/uploads/11779_normal.jpg]
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby motogpmd on Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:26 pm

And in fact Stoner's neck injury was a problem for him all the way to Misano, where his inability to train properly affected his race fitness.
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Zaphod on Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:21 pm

Do we need a "Stoner vs Lorenzo" topic as well ??

Lorenzo got spat off before that actual race,....Stoner well before that race, even by your own admissions. Surely some healing had taken place between then and Laguna ???

So is it Stoner who was "playing the injury card" ?

My bet is, NONE OF THEM PLAY AN INJURY CARD, and one could almost say, definately not Lorenzo. Riding with busted ankles etc, etc,etc.

Please excuse my high-horsedness, but it is starting to become rather tiresome to have every topic turning into rider comparisons between everybody else V Stoner, and why he is supreme.

It would be good to see an acceptance of the fact that they are all very talented riders, and that most of the "war of words" that occur between them usualy happen in the heat of the moment, dealt with and then largely forgotten by the relevant parties while the media beat it up relentlessly for months on end in an effort to have something to write about.

Thanks for the numbers Rats.........very interesting.

motogpmd wrote:The consistency of these top guys illustrates why it is so difficult to create close racing in the current era. If a rider makes even a small mistake and loses a couple of seconds (so easy to do), there is just no way back. We saw this with Spies several times in 2011. He was just too slow over the first lap or so (as he readily acknowledges), and by the time he sorted himself out the front runners were usually uncatchable. We have seen many times a leading rider pull out just a tenth or so per lap so consistently that those following can do nothing about it. This remarkable consistency seems to be a combination of modern technology and a very high level of rider skill.


I read something along these lines in an article from 2010,

Rossi; Sometimes, on some races and some days, you don't have enough speed to try and win. In the past, with different bikes and different tyres, it was possible to invent something during the race. Now, if you don't have the pace, you just crash.


Pedrosa; The races are flat out all the way now.......you cannot play for 10 laps and then push. Fuel consumption is everything on these bikes now.

Once you have the bike set up to maintain a certain pace, you can hold that pace over the entire race.

That means you either slowly pull away, or are slowly left behind, and there is not much you can do about it.


those comments, of course, were from the 800 days, although maybe still relevant going on the early performance idicators for the 1000's.

Thanks again Rats.
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Upon1 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:25 pm

Not to be a stickler for details, but that picture actually looks like Stoners highside at the Sachsenring at the last fast right.

I think you meant this one...
Image

But yes, I had completely forgotten that Stoner was injured for that period where they had lots of back to back races.

Does anyone else find it more then a little irritating that we have had 2 F1 rounds, and will have had 2 SBK rounds before MotoGP decides it's time to start. All because Qatar has to have the first race of the season!

I don't however think that Stoner will be winning easily this year. I think Yamaha are a lot closer and Stoner will be pushed much more then last year.
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Gustav O on Tue Mar 27, 2012 11:29 pm

Zaphod wrote:Please excuse my high-horsedness, but it is starting to become rather tiresome to have every topic turning into rider comparisons between everybody else V Stoner, and why he is supreme.

Halleluja, Amen.
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby corinthian on Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:33 am

Zaphod wrote:Do we need a "Stoner vs Lorenzo" topic as well ??

Lorenzo got spat off before that actual race,....Stoner well before that race, even by your own admissions. Surely some healing had taken place between then and Laguna ???

So is it Stoner who was "playing the injury card" ?

My bet is, NONE OF THEM PLAY AN INJURY CARD, and one could almost say, definately not Lorenzo. Riding with busted ankles etc, etc,etc.

Please excuse my high-horsedness, but it is starting to become rather tiresome to have every topic turning into rider comparisons between everybody else V Stoner, and why he is supreme.

I didn't make my point very well, I was just suggesting that at Laguna Seca 2011injuries were not such an issue, as all three riders on the podium were injured. One more than another? Probably. But they all still podiumed, didn't they?

As for “every topic turning into rider comparisons”, you are going to have a long year policing that one :D Just going back over this thread, particularly the tyre management discussion and references to LS 2011, I'd say it's been fairly on-topic and well argued.

If you want to talk about Jerez, fine by me - I was in Jerez on Sunday and had a ball. Took a truckload of photos, got to see everything I'd wanted to see and more, and even my wife and daughter had fun. Well worth the 6-hour round trip. Here are a bunch of thoughts:

- The last hour was only slightly cooler than earlier in the day but the wind had died down a lot. It was a good time to come out and get a fast lap in
- Dani Pedrosa seemed like he was out on track all afternoon. Hats off to him. He and Lorenzo put in a hell of a lot of hard work
- The Ducati sounds phenomenal in a straight line...
- BUT Hayden had the TC turned up so high it sounded absolutely terrible around the corners (at least at the part of the track where we were - especially around Crivillé)
- The CRTs look and sound a lot better than I had expected (I particularly liked Ellison's ART), and I'm REALLY looking forward to this season. Even if they're not fast, they're FUN
- Randy de Puniet - he's going to be everybody's second-favourite rider this season!
- Rossi was going for it, pushing hard. I was also at the Valencia test when he first tested the Duc and at the very least he looks much, much better now
- Bikes and paintjobs: the Honda is about the same as ever but the Yamahas and Ducatis look much better than last year, even though I'd been wishing for red on the Yams
- Stefan Bradl will be worth keeping an eye on, and Crutchlow is also looking great

Next time they throw that many new bikes, names and numbers in at the start of a season I'm going to have to do my homework! There was lots of "Who's that?" "Ermmm..."
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby corinthian on Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:45 am

Upon1 wrote:Not to be a stickler for details, but that picture actually looks like Stoners highside at the Sachsenring at the last fast right.

I think you meant this one...

Well spotted, thanks. Now that you point it out it's obvious. Once again I've been let down by poor memory and worse googling!

Upon1 wrote:Does anyone else find it more then a little irritating that we have had 2 F1 rounds, and will have had 2 SBK rounds before MotoGP decides it's time to start. All because Qatar has to have the first race of the season!

I certainly do, but then I am actually glad that it's done this way from the weather point of view. We had rain at Sepang and Jerez, and even here in Spain we have had plenty of cold, windy days that would have been difficult to race in. I do wish they'd change the dates for Phillip Island though.
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Upon1 on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:05 am

Corinthian,

Awesome observations. I wish I was that close to the action! I'm lucky enough to be able to make the Sepang GP this year...I'm hoping I can get a few autographs and pictures...maybe...just maybe!

I do wish Repsol would do something different with their colours, but I guess that would be like MacDonalds changing colours to blue and green!

Good point with the weather...but it's been a lil' bit all over the shop around Europe at the moment isn't it?

With regards to this thread turning into a Lorenzo vs Stoner topic as well...it's bound to happen to a degree. Those are the two guys who's names are religiously at the top of the timesheets at every test, and even more so this test. And it's looking like that's the way the season is going to go as well. It's hardly Everyone vs Stoner...I mean no one is comparing Spies or Pedrosa's to Stoner at the moment and there has been absolutely no mention of Rossi vs Stoner in here that I can think of.
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby akeizm on Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:54 am

Last time Repsol changed their theme was last year and it was god damn AWFUL!
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Squidpuppet on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:00 am

akeizm wrote:Last time Repsol changed their theme was last year and it was god damn AWFUL!


I loved the Crayola bikes. :)

Image
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Zaphod on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:30 am

Not a fan of that scheme myself, but's it's good to see HRC getting the kids involved in the sport. :D
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Upon1 on Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:18 am

I thought it was really cool! But personally, I think the below shot shows it off best! haha

Image
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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby motomania on Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:35 am

The definitely seems to be quite a difference between the tires from the last few years and this years tires. While I haven't been able recently to keep up real well on all things MotoGP, from what I've seen there's been no complaints about tires not warming up in a reasonable time. Obviosuly BS got the message that the riders needed changes made to the tires. Maybe there won't be the rash of early lap crashes in races, practices, etc. like they've had over the last couple years. We've had some pretty serious injuries and worse, I feel that those BS tires carry a good part of the blame for those incidents. And to be quite honest, I don't have a problem if the tires actually go off a bit at the end of the race. I think that the tires and tire management are going to become a factor once again. That's part of the racing as far as I'm concerned and I'd rather see that then see guys on their asses because the damn tire won't get warm. Many didn't feel the tires were that big of an issue but obviously the riders felt differently, or they wouldn't have told Capirex to tell BS to get something done.

Another rider to watch when it comes to being able to both manage and ride on wore out tires is Spies. From the little bit I've seen and from what I've read, Ben seems pretty happy with things. I, for one, wouldn't be surprised to see him at the pointy end of things this year. I know he's got the talent, hopefully he won't have any of the issues that cost him early last year.


Gustav O wrote:
Zaphod wrote:Please excuse my high-horsedness, but it is starting to become rather tiresome to have every topic turning into rider comparisons between everybody else V Stoner, and why he is supreme.

Halleluja, Amen.

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Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby tom on Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:01 am

Anyone have any idea what the bolted on looking bits of faring on the front of JL's bike were? they weren't on the bike at its launch and look un-aerodynamic to me.

Image
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