Jerez MotoGP test.

Discussion and debate about the MotoGP class

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby motogpmd on Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:57 am

RatsMC wrote:This really looks a lot like the unfounded optimism of a fan, Oscar. You and I both know that managing tire wear isn't about your crew chief, it's about your ability to ride hard on worn tires.

Bike setup is critical managing tire wear, it's not just the rider. This is something Rossi/Burgess were once very good at (maybe still are). The crew chef is most certainly an important part of the equation. IMO Gabbarini is a very important part of Stoner's success. But in any case Stoner should be as good as anyone at riding a bike on worn tires. This is reputedly a weakness of Pedrosa.
motogpmd
 
Posts: 121
Joined: Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:11 am

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Oscar on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:09 am

RatsMC wrote:This really looks a lot like the unfounded optimism of a fan, Oscar. You and I both know that managing tire wear isn't about your crew chief, it's about your ability to ride hard on worn tires.


Guilty of the first charge, m'lud, with a multitude of prior offences I'd like taken into consideration. As to the second - if Gabbarini says 'take care of your tyres, they could be a problem' I do believe that Stoner will listen.

motogpmd wrote:But in any case Stoner should be as good as anyone at riding a bike on worn tires.


Stoner has a pretty good record of riding something loose and still pretty damn fast.. (see also: Guilty of the first charge, m'lud)
Road rash is nature's way of telling you you should have widened your entry
User avatar
Oscar
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:47 am
Location: Southern Highlands, NSW, Australia

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby eddahenry on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:18 am

Oscar wrote:Stoner has a pretty good record of riding something loose and still pretty damn fast.. (see also: Guilty of the first charge, m'lud)

I remember seeing a young skinny kid around 97 98 at a dusty flat track riding the arss off a bike to big for him with the rear trying to overtake the front ,
sliding bikes didnt phase him back than. and the smart little so and so won everything that day.
eddahenry
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:08 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby TwoStroke Institute on Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:08 pm

That describes 99% of the kids in dirt track though :lol:
If Jesus had ridden, he would have rode a two stroke
TwoStroke Institute
 
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 1:53 pm

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Japhrodisiac on Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:50 pm

Oscar wrote:... I have to ask also, why hasn't anybody thought of Vermuelen for a CRT ride? - he's still in the rarified atmosphere of having won a race in the 800's era outside of the aliens. His pedigree is far better than the majority of the CRT imports. It's the hat, isn't it? Aparthat is a terrible thing.


Is he even capable of riding? Last I heard his knee was completely mucked, with little chance of recuperating. He must of raced the Kawi WSBK a total of about 4 times in 2 seasons.
??
Last edited by Rusty Bucket USA on Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited quote for topic clarity
Japhrodisiac
 
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 9:13 pm

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby RatsMC on Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:51 pm

My comment directed at Oscar sounds a little more harsh than intended and I certainly do not discount the importance or set up. I believe Gabbarini is an unsung genius who doesn't get the recognition he deserves.

However, we were discussing the rider's ability to manage tire wear and I think some of the comments were somewhat unfounded or were giving certain riders credit for some ability that we haven't seen proven.

I think it is fair to say that we ca predict Stoner will be able to manage tire based on his ability to ride through flaws in a bike but I don't think we can say that there is any evidence that he has any significant experience managing tire wear.
User avatar
RatsMC
 
Posts: 5725
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 10:15 pm
Location: Oakland

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby corinthian on Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:30 pm

RatsMC wrote:However, we were discussing the rider's ability to manage tire wear and I think some of the comments were somewhat unfounded or were giving certain riders credit for some ability that we haven't seen proven.

I think it is fair to say that we ca predict Stoner will be able to manage tire based on his ability to ride through flaws in a bike but I don't think we can say that there is any evidence that he has any significant experience managing tire wear.

This is something I've discussed in the real world a bit. We know he's better at tyre management and riding worn tyres than Dani (he's commented on this in a couple of interviews, Nakamoto has also mentioned their difference on older tyres, and I think that now Dani's greatest weakness is his poor results when uncomfortable, especially late-race, including on worn tyres). Lorenzo seems to be excellent at tyre management, as shown by his spectacular late-race form, and I think that only part of that can be put down to how the Yamahas get the power to the ground (although they have had major problems with this issue at a couple of races in the last two seasons). But there's no real way to evaluate the evidence, which is largely anecdotal or contradictory anyway.

That said, I can remember a couple of races from last season where his tyres came to pieces and he still managed to salvage a podium.
User avatar
corinthian
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:28 pm
Location: Down South, Spain

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Squidpuppet on Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:25 pm

RatsMC wrote:This really looks a lot like the unfounded optimism of a fan, Oscar. You and I both know that managing tire wear isn't about your crew chief, it's about your ability to ride hard on worn tires.


IMO, tire management is more about making a race plan(s) based on the knowledge that the tires will begin going off on lap "X" and continue to degrade at a pace of "Y" for the duration of the race, and then implementing said plan(s) based on where you find yourself on lap "X".

If it were only about riding hard on worn tires, then Casey has even less to worry about and will likely dominate even more. His bike preference is a loose set up, a bike that moves around, constantly providing feedback about where the limit is. Some of the other riders dislike a sliding bike and tend to slow down in order to keep their wheels in line, while Casey creates entirely different lines that compensate (and compliment) for a sliding bike. Old sliding tires will feed right into his one of his best strengths.

Frankly, and I hope things change so I can be wrong, this .6 second race pace gap is not pretty in terms of "entertainment" for the upcoming season.
User avatar
Squidpuppet
 
Posts: 3217
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:14 pm
Location: CdA, ID

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Tourn46 on Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:19 pm

Squidpuppet wrote:If it were only about riding hard on worn tires, then Casey has even less to worry about and will likely dominate even more. His bike preference is a loose set up, a bike that moves around, constantly providing feedback about where the limit is. Some of the other riders dislike a sliding bike and tend to slow down in order to keep their wheels in line, while Casey creates entirely different lines that compensate (and compliment) for a sliding bike. Old sliding tires will feed right into his one of his best strengths.


This statement counts for all riders, I just want to make this disclaimer as I'm responding to a post containing the word Stoner...

I'm not sure I 100% agree... worn tyres and a loose bike are 2 different things in my opinion. I'm sure there are ways in which a rider can compensate to a degree, but no rubber is no rubber and no amount of skill will see anyone perform with tyres that have gone off.

The bike will likely be spinning without pushing forward as well... so it's not a case of just altering your line a sliding through the corners, you'll lack in so many other areas compared to someone on better rubber.

Perhaps that is looking at the extreme situation, but although I am certain some riders will perform better on worn tyres, it doesn't necessarily mean it's like riding a bike with a loose set up.
User avatar
Tourn46
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Location: UK (AKA Rossiland)

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Squidpuppet on Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:52 pm

Tourn46 wrote:no rubber is no rubber and no amount of skill will see anyone perform with tyres that have gone off.


Quite the contrary my dear Tourn. When everyones tires begin to go bye bye, we get to see the men vs the boys.

There are indeed techniques that can be implemented to compensate for a bike that wants to go sideways. One is to slowdown, the others are....well... keep an eye on the the guys whos style you don't currently care for. The "sloppy" ones.

The bike will likely be spinning without pushing forward as well... so it's not a case of just altering your line a sliding through the corners,


Correct. And the guys who can enter a corner sideways will be pointed the right way sooner than those who roll in-and-through. They'll be upright and on the gas way before the others. Some can do this, some can't.
User avatar
Squidpuppet
 
Posts: 3217
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:14 pm
Location: CdA, ID

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Rossifumi on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:11 pm

Squidpuppet wrote:
Tourn46 wrote:no rubber is no rubber and no amount of skill will see anyone perform with tyres that have gone off.


Quite the contrary my dear Tourn. When everyones tires begin to go bye bye, we get to see the men vs the boys.

There are indeed techniques that can be implemented to compensate for a bike that wants to go sideways. One is to slowdown, the others are....well... keep an eye on the the guys whos style you don't currently care for. The "sloppy" ones. .


wasn't this about tyre management rather than tyres that don't last the distance for anyone? riders who can avoid using up their rubber before the finish as opposed to those who can't? at motoGP level if one rider has used up his rubber he will be powerless against riders who haven't - I thought that was the point Tourn was making
Rossifumi
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Squidpuppet on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:32 pm

Rossifumi wrote:wasn't this about tyre management rather than tyres that don't last the distance for anyone?


Both are being discussed.

riders who can avoid using up their rubber before the finish as opposed to those who can't? at motoGP level if one rider has used up his rubber he will be powerless against riders who haven't -


Agree to a great extent. Management also means having a race plan in place for when/if they go off. Some want to preserve early and be the late race Pouncer, while some take their chances by running away early and deal with the role of Pouncee later.

I thought that was the point Tourn was making


My comments about the "Men vs boys" were in the context of all riders experiencing severe degradation during a race.
User avatar
Squidpuppet
 
Posts: 3217
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:14 pm
Location: CdA, ID

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby eddahenry on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:42 pm

Rossifumi wrote:
Squidpuppet wrote:
Tourn46 wrote:no rubber is no rubber and no amount of skill will see anyone perform with tyres that have gone off.


Quite the contrary my dear Tourn. When everyones tires begin to go bye bye, we get to see the men vs the boys.

There are indeed techniques that can be implemented to compensate for a bike that wants to go sideways. One is to slowdown, the others are....well... keep an eye on the the guys whos style you don't currently care for. The "sloppy" ones. .


wasn't this about tyre management rather than tyres that don't last the distance for anyone? riders who can avoid using up their rubber before the finish as opposed to those who can't? at motoGP level if one rider has used up his rubber he will be powerless against riders who haven't - I thought that was the point Tourn was making


Hasn't nearly every rider commented on the tyres dropping off after 6 laps and continuing to go bad ??
So maybe we are talking about tyres that wont go the distance
eddahenry
 
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:08 am
Location: Sydney Australia

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby DJH on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:48 pm

eddahenry wrote:Hasn't nearly every rider commented on the tyres dropping off after 6 laps and continuing to go bad ??
So maybe we are talking about tyres that wont go the distance


The riders will never be happy either way it goes. Especially if they aren't winning.

Stoner did his 10 lap race simulation on a worn set (or just a rear?) and his times seem fine.. so I guess we'll have to wait until Qatar to see.

Speaking of which.. not long to go!
User avatar
DJH
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 8:54 am

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby TwoStroke Institute on Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:50 pm

Tyre management is more set up than rider, but a MotoGP bike would have the power to disintergrate tyres in a short period. The current tyre life king is Lorenzo, in 2010 Jorge/Forcada combo tweeked the rear of the M1 to get more grip and use less tyre, I don't think Stoner had to deal effectively with rear tyre life until 2011. Mugello showed Stoner/Gabarini can get it wrong but they bouced back pretty quick from that with a lesson learned. Pedrosa flies under the radar as he does everything very well but not out standing in one area, which kind of makes him look mundane.
If Jesus had ridden, he would have rode a two stroke
TwoStroke Institute
 
Posts: 1462
Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 1:53 pm

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Squidpuppet on Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:01 pm

eddahenry wrote:Hasn't nearly every rider commented on the tyres dropping off after 6 laps and continuing to go bad ??
So maybe we are talking about tyres that wont go the distance


Yes, many of them have said this. Lorenzo especially. Which makes me very curious about his race simulation at Jerez, where his lap times didnt worsen for the 27 laps. Was he preserving, or modifying his style, or taking it easy, or sand bagging, or...? His fastest laps were on 25 and 27. :?:

Thats why I say that IF the tires "Cant" be preserved by even the most conservative riders, we will see some loose riding from the likes of Casey, Hayden, RdP and Rossi. I know Lorenzo grew up on dirt and attended KR's Slide Ranch, but he seems to prefer an asphalt setting that is more bolted to the track. He has often made comments about the bike "moving" and "sliding" too much. That said, we've read Forcada say that Jorge is a genius at tire management and at adapting his style as the tires wear.
User avatar
Squidpuppet
 
Posts: 3217
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:14 pm
Location: CdA, ID

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Tourn46 on Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:10 pm

Squidpuppet wrote:There are indeed techniques that can be implemented to compensate for a bike that wants to go sideways. One is to slowdown, the others are....well... keep an eye on the the guys whos style you don't currently care for. The "sloppy" ones.

The bike will likely be spinning without pushing forward as well... so it's not a case of just altering your line a sliding through the corners,


Correct. And the guys who can enter a corner sideways will be pointed the right way sooner than those who roll in-and-through. They'll be upright and on the gas way before the others. Some can do this, some can't.


Under the assumption that the tyre degredation is equal for all concerned, then yes I can't disagree with you, but in reality each rider will use tyres up differently and likewise each machine will use them differently too...

I'm not making any predictions that any of them will have tyre management issues (I think it could come into play during a few races throughout the year), as these guys are the best riders in the world, they'll cope - but very few on the grid really have any previous experience with tyres that degrede a lot - perhaps Spies, Rossi, Crutchlow (SS?), Edwards are the most likely to have seen this to a meaningful degree?
User avatar
Tourn46
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Location: UK (AKA Rossiland)

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Squidpuppet on Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:31 pm

Tourn46 wrote:- but very few on the grid really have any previous experience with tyres that degrede a lot - perhaps Spies, Rossi, Crutchlow (SS?), Edwards are the most likely to have seen this to a meaningful degree?


I include Nicky and Casey because their "Natural" styles favor a sliding bike. They are comfortable sideways. I include RdP because he is my favorite maniacal limit pusher.
User avatar
Squidpuppet
 
Posts: 3217
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:14 pm
Location: CdA, ID

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Tourn46 on Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:31 pm

Squidpuppet wrote:
Tourn46 wrote:- but very few on the grid really have any previous experience with tyres that degrede a lot - perhaps Spies, Rossi, Crutchlow (SS?), Edwards are the most likely to have seen this to a meaningful degree?


I include Nicky and Casey because their "Natural" styles favor a sliding bike. They are comfortable sideways. I include RdP because he is my favorite maniacal limit pusher.


I concur with that one :lol:
User avatar
Tourn46
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Location: UK (AKA Rossiland)

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Squidpuppet on Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:33 pm

Tourn46 wrote:
Squidpuppet wrote:
Tourn46 wrote:- but very few on the grid really have any previous experience with tyres that degrede a lot - perhaps Spies, Rossi, Crutchlow (SS?), Edwards are the most likely to have seen this to a meaningful degree?


I include Nicky and Casey because their "Natural" styles favor a sliding bike. They are comfortable sideways. I include RdP because he is my favorite maniacal limit pusher.


I concur with that one :lol:


he's loose on fresh tires. :D I wish he had a competitive bike. :(
User avatar
Squidpuppet
 
Posts: 3217
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:14 pm
Location: CdA, ID

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Tourn46 on Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:37 pm

Squidpuppet wrote:he's loose on fresh tires. :D I wish he had a competitive bike. :(


I genuinely think he's got untapped potential to really put in some great results if he had the right machinery under him. It's really no mean feat what he's achieved so far in regards to keeping pace with the sattelite bikes on the ART...
User avatar
Tourn46
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Location: UK (AKA Rossiland)

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Oscar on Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:49 pm

Squidpuppet wrote:IMO, tire management is more about making a race plan(s) based on the knowledge that the tires will begin going off on lap "X" and continue to degrade at a pace of "Y" for the duration of the race, and then implementing said plan(s) based on where you find yourself on lap "X".


That is pretty much where I was coming from also, and the reason I bought the apparent trust in the relationship Stoner has with Gabbarini as a factor. I think we saw at Jerez last year (while it lasted, for Stoner) that both he and Lorenzo were very much in tyre conservation mode in the early stages of the race, and mainly racing each other for position rather than trying to race the field. Simoncelli showed the results of just going for it.

Lorenzo's reputation for tyre management and metronomic laps right to the finish has to be well-deserved, nobody would seriously doubt it. I think that in Stoner's case, the memory of his 'run away from the start' race strategy on the Ducati has resulted in the impression that he has no other modus operandi, whereas I think we have seen some evidence at least from last year that he is adaptable and able to use a race strategy that is more flexible; again I cite L.S '11 as a significant example. That race is worth watching for the strategy alone, and bought back memories to me of another rider at an earlier time who would almost inevitably carve up the pack and leave in the last quarter of the race..

The bottom line here is: we will see as the year progresses, all the rest is conjecture. I do, however ( and yes, waving my little 127 flag), believe that at this stage there is no reason to think Stoner faces any greater challenge in tyre management than any other rider.
Road rash is nature's way of telling you you should have widened your entry
User avatar
Oscar
 
Posts: 2156
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 8:47 am
Location: Southern Highlands, NSW, Australia

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Rusty Bucket USA on Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:06 am

The internal combustion engine was not put on wheels just to rest the horses.
User avatar
Rusty Bucket USA
 
Posts: 2181
Joined: Thu May 22, 2008 4:11 am
Location: Philly, PA USA

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Tourn46 on Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:23 am

Oscar wrote:That is pretty much where I was coming from also, and the reason I bought the apparent trust in the relationship Stoner has with Gabbarini as a factor..


This isn't necessarily aimed at your comment, but I would suggest that any rider who doesn't have a trusting relationship with their chief engineer, goes and gets themselves a new one.
I don't think there is any reason to believe any rider will suffer more with tyre degredation than the others, but likewise I would say it's foolhardy to assume anyone is immune... we just don't know at all yet.

Although your reference to LS11 is fair, let's not forget that Lorenzo was very battered about after his highside in practise so there are still questions there regarding the ability of Lorenzo to retaliate in that battle.
User avatar
Tourn46
 
Posts: 1538
Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 5:09 pm
Location: UK (AKA Rossiland)

Re: Jerez MotoGP test.

Postby Nachlauf on Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:34 am

Tourn46 wrote:I genuinely think he's got untapped potential to really put in some great results if he had the right machinery under him.

I agree with that. I'd love to see this guy get a full season on a competitive bike. In my opinion he has more talent and raw pace than Bautista and Barbera.


Tourn46 wrote:Although your reference to LS11 is fair, let's not forget that Lorenzo was very battered about after his highside in practise so there are still questions there regarding the ability of Lorenzo to retaliate in that battle.

Imho LS11 is a bad example. Jorge could barely walk. His performance was actually surprisingly good there. But there have been other examples like Brno and Indy. He didn't suffer from tire degradation as others did, but he clearly was in trouble there. Now we don't know what caused it. Could be something like suboptimal tire pressure like it happened to Stoner in Mugello. Ultimately Jorge has still to prove if he can manage tire wear better than his rivals. I don't think that's a rested case already.
User avatar
Nachlauf
 
Posts: 235
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:53 pm
Location: Germany

PreviousNext

Return to MotoGP Class

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest