2012 - Sepang II

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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Tourn46 on Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:55 pm

ducati1098s wrote:
WayneG wrote:This I didn't want to read.

Mathew Birt: Valentino Rossi not happy. Understeer and corner entry still a problem and seems a lot of Sepang 1 optimism has faded quickly
Quote Valentino Rossi: "I am very disappointed. And worried."



I dont understand that comment as a general analysis of the bike. How can you say great things about the bike last time re improved corner entry and then say its no good now? Surely the only logical explanation is that some of the changes they've recently made to the bike need to be undone....

Sounds like its going to be the 2012 Stoner/Lorenzo show which quite frankly is not enough (for me anyway). I cant believe that I feel a greater sense of excitement in terms of spectacle about the coming F1 season than I do MotoGP


It is a bit contradictory regarding the comments after Sepang 1... The only thing I can assume is that although it's still a problem, it isn't as bad as 2011? That would kind of make sense I guess :| Either way I await some more explanation from the Red Garage...

I also don't really want 2012 to just be the Stoner/Lorenzo show... if Rossi isn't winning, then I couldn't give a monkeys out of the rest who wins, but I would rather watch the Stoner/Lorenzo/Pedrosa/Crutchlow/Spies/Dovizioso/Bautista show if Rossi isn't up there!
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby ducati1098s on Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:00 pm

Agreed Tourn- the problem is that they rest will be 5-10 secs behind Stoner and Lorenzo (with Pedrosa an occasional invitee)
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby sailor22 on Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:10 pm

My first thought was that the positions are not much different than last year with the exception the satellite bikes are closer. But after reading Lorenzo's comments after a full race simulation and comparing noon times to end times it looks like some of the teams that are apparently closer were riding for a single fast lap so they probably aren't much closer than last year actually.

The tires only being full grip for the first few laps and then degrading throughout the race can be a game changer and will reward teams that get the chasis and electronics to work well with the new spec tire as it loses grip in the later stages of the race. Expect the teams to be doing more race simulation next test to get set ups that will work at the end of the race too. Look for riders with dirt track background or superbike experience to show better late in the race than last year.

Rider fitness will be a much bigger factor next year also. Less grip from the tires, fatigued rider, more powerful bike, what could go wrong?

Looks right now like another Stoner Lorenzo show with Pedro showing up now and again.

After watching Biaggi on the Apillia last weekend (Damn, that bike is fast) I think it's possible the GP Aprillia psuedo CRT will worry some satellite bikes early in the season and possibly pull a huge surprise. If that happens then cue the political pissin match.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby RatsMC on Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:09 pm

Gustav O wrote:Matthew Birt ‏ @birtymotogp
Lorenzo said race simulation showed that tyre management in race going to very crucial in new 1000cc era



This is great news. This should help make the racing a little more interesting.

Cam D wrote:Between that and the chattering the Japanese manufacturers are suffering, Bridgestone have done a great job with then new tyres. :lol:


They've done exactly what they were asked to do and exactly what was needed. The tires took too long to get to temperature and then lasted the entire race, usually allowing the last few laps to be as fast as at any point during the race.

Bring back tire management. Let's see who can really ride with a roasted tire.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby RatsMC on Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:19 pm

ducati1098s wrote:Agreed Tourn- the problem is that they rest will be 5-10 secs behind Stoner and Lorenzo (with Pedrosa an occasional invitee)


You've determined this from a single, mostly rained-out test?

I'm actually expecting there to be a lot more going on this season than we have seen in at least 5 years.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Albert on Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:17 pm

RatsMC wrote:
I'm actually expecting there to be a lot more going on this season than we have seen in at least 5 years.


I'm in complete agreement with you Rats!

I didn't particularly look forward to the change to the 800's, partly because I thought it to be an unnecessary expense which was primarily aimed at slowing the bikes down!
We can argue until the cows come home (oh, good evening Daisy!Image) as to who was the prime mover behind the formula, but the end result of the 800 era was that the bikes weren't slower than the 990's as had been hoped, and in most cases actually lapped quicker!

I'm looking forward to this season as I think the move to 1000's (Spalders reckons the Ducati is 925 but what the hey!) will suit some of the other riders outside of the commonly perceived "Alien" status rankings, and I cling to the hope that we may have some closer racing! (although maybe we need to give the CS27 Honda a weight penalty à la the Checa WSB Ducati!) :lol:
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby SP_won on Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:53 am

Gustav O wrote:Some interesting quotes from Lorenzo by courtesy of Mathew Birt of MCN.

Matthew Birt ‏ @birtymotogp
Lorenzo said race simulation was v tough. New soft tyres lose grip very quickly so stopping bike not easy and rear slides a lot

Matthew Birt ‏ @birtymotogp
Lorenzo said with softer tyres and more power, 1000s going to be much more physical to race than 800s

Matthew Birt ‏ @birtymotogp
Lorenzo said race simulation showed that tyre management in race going to very crucial in new 1000cc era


Spies tweeted "Ooops... Had a bit too many laps on the front doing some shock testing and lost the front."

Compare with comments re tyres from Stoner on trash.net

“When there was a tyre war you needed to make sure you could last the race. Now we're all running the same tyres. Today we did 23-24 laps on the same rear and over 30 laps on the same front and they were still working quite well.

http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/177267 ... inues.html

Scary for the rest :o
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Faster1 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:56 am

Albert wrote:
RatsMC wrote:
I'm actually expecting there to be a lot more going on this season than we have seen in at least 5 years.


I'm in complete agreement with you Rats!


Props Rats,, you and Albert have unflappable optimism.,,, I really wish that I could see from your angles instead of through my tunnel vision. Even with the change to the bigger engines, the paddock talk sounds eerily like last year. The “big fix is a few parts away”, which has never happened. While I believe that no rider/racer/team member has ever been completely forth coming when someone shoves a microphone is their face, usually there is always some positive spin to the question about the future. I’m sure that Ducati is not oblivious about all the doom and gloom speculation/talk, since lap times are not a secret. With limited practice, once on the track, I believe that every rider is going flat out on almost every lap, regardless of initial mission of “test this part” or “test this new setting”. If it doesn’t work, you would think that very few laps would be wasted. Most every team capable of progress (relative to the competition), always shows progress. I agree that one test means nothing, but relative to the total amount of testing, the gap from Ducati to Hon-ahas has remained relatively consistent ever since the crowd went home in Spain last year, giving no indication that this year will be any different than last. Maybe I’m missing something. And I’m not happy about it either, I want close racing. We NEED Ducati ! ! ! !
What would have been a cool fantasy move is if Ducati pulled the plug on fuel consumption and programmed “drink as much as you want” on the engine mapping and let Rossi/Nicky do a few unrestricted “hot Laps” (possible?, How did Suzuki appear to be so fast during pre-season testing for all those years?), if anything, to appease the masses. It would have met nothing come go-time but it might have thrown some confidence to the apparently deflated team and quiet the doom/gloom talk. Show something before Qatar,, anything.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby sir_nj on Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:31 am

In some ways it would be great to see the tyres going back to having a fast warm up but need to be managed to finish first. The aliens won't have any problems with it since they were able to cope when the tyre characteristics were like that before and the guy who managed his the best always had the chance of winning or at least catching the one infront. Spies also shouldn't have much of a problem as that was situation normal for him BEFORE he came to MotoGp. The difficulty I see is that for the non aliens and those on CRT bikes is that it might leave them even further behind when the tyre wear starts to show since wasn't electronics a big challenge/remedy to help with tyre wear when electronics first came in. If you are struggling with your electronics bill now what is it going to be like for the CRT teams if they have to double the load? Or am I way off beam?

Also, not too sure what to make of Ducati's effort this time and I wonder if they had had 3 full days would they have gone back to the previous test settings just for comparison? Have to think that Rossi is not going to lay down and cry about it but he may have to alter his horizon for the year. Is Ducati really that stretched and if so then it just goes to show that if they will take till mid year to get parts for Rossi then any other rider past or present really had no show of change.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Cam D on Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:51 am

Jorge @ Crash..
“After three or four laps the rear tyre grip drops, and then it continues to drop steadily after that. I found the front tyre very soft so I also had some problems with braking. But anyway I could still keep a fairly constant pace and I'm quite satisfied. Now we will go through the data for everything.”
and
Like team-mate Ben Spies, Lorenzo suffered a fall midway through the final day. “We are not sure, Bridgestone has to see, but I think that the rear tyre was a little worse than normal,” said Lorenzo. “It was a new tyre.”
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Cam D on Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:07 am

Pretty cool...
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby RatsMC on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:14 am

Faster1 wrote:
Props Rats,, you and Albert have unflappable optimism.,,, I really wish that I could see from your angles instead of through my tunnel vision. Even with the change to the bigger engines, the paddock talk sounds eerily like last year.



I think - and I give Albert a huge nod for this - neither of us are talking about Ducati fixing their bike or Rossi running at the front (though both of us would love to see this again). What we are talking about is riders able to take advantage of the strengths they have to close the gap to the front. There seems to be more variables through race distance that will come in to play that we haven't seen in years. Do you take the soft and run away, hoping that you can be easy on the tire for the second half or do you take the hard and hope the guy who made a break wasted his tire getting there? Racing basically.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Cam D on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:47 am

Like back when they had several tyre manufacturers? :D (jks)
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2012 - Sepang II

Postby tom on Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:31 am

Dovi was very impressive. Just from throwing a quick eye over the times it looks like his pace is about the same as Lorenzo's maybe not quite as consistent but not far off. The yamaha seems to suit him.

It would be interesting to do some analysis on them if anyone has the time.

Link to times ---> http://css.motogp.com/media/pdf/test_re ... 00ce6ec6fa
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby RatsMC on Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:49 pm

I'm wondering if I've been wrong about Barbera. We'll see when the racing actually starts but without any detailed information, you have to wonder if he might be the most successful Ducati satellite rider ever and perhaps the most successful Ducati rider other than Stoner since 2007.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Sloth27 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:31 am

I like Barbera and I think if he puts it all on the line this year, he could easily be equal or even in front of Hayden and Rossi by season's end. If he qualify's well, he can tag onto a fast group and is aggressive enough to beat them to the line. He hasn't really got much to lose and could grab a Ducati factory seat for 2013.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby RatsMC on Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:09 am

Sloth27 wrote: He hasn't really got much to lose and could grab a Ducati factory seat for 2013.



I think that's stretching it a little. If he finishes better than Rossi, it would be hard to argue it is because he is better than Rossi and given the Rossi and Hayden are running close together, it would be hard to extend that argument to his relative talent compared to Hayden. Given that Hayden has a greater marketing value than Barbera, I just can't see him losing the seat.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Sloth27 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:07 am

As marketable as Hayden is, surely if Barbera were to beat him this year it you would be looking at him given results may be hard to come by for the team. For me, Hayden's time is well and truly up and he should be in WSBK.

I also think it is 50/50 that Rossi will stay if the results don't start to come within the first half of this season.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby ieism on Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:22 am

You only have to look at Ducati's 2011 sale figures to figure out why Hayden will be on a Ducati next year.

Rossi shoud be replaced by de Puniet or Bradl immediately (just kidding). But really Italy is not even Ducati's biggest market in the EU anymore.

I'm a big Rossi fan myself, but let's be honest here...If the Ducati is not capable of winning races thisi year what's the point of keeping Rossi on board? Wouldn't it be more fun to see him battling Biaggi in WSB on a 1199 Panigale :lol:
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby RatsMC on Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:49 am

Sloth27 wrote:As marketable as Hayden is, surely if Barbera were to beat him this year it you would be looking at him given results may be hard to come by for the team. For me, Hayden's time is well and truly up and he should be in WSBK.

I also think it is 50/50 that Rossi will stay if the results don't start to come within the first half of this season.


You completely missed my point: If Barbera beats Hayden, he will also have beaten Rossi which means that the bike Rossi and Hayden are on is not as good as the satellite Ducati - a situation I don't believe will exist once the racing starts.

Hayden has had the best results of anyone on the 800cc Ducati except Stoner and Rossi and he nearly matched Rossi. There is no evidence that anyone will do any better than him on the bike.

Barbera might, I repeat: might, be better than I estimated but he is nowhere near as fast as Hayden. His results in testing were a fluke and no reason to start reevaluating contracts.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Cam D on Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:42 am

RatsMC wrote:
Sloth27 wrote:As marketable as Hayden is, surely if Barbera were to beat him this year it you would be looking at him given results may be hard to come by for the team. For me, Hayden's time is well and truly up and he should be in WSBK.

I also think it is 50/50 that Rossi will stay if the results don't start to come within the first half of this season.


You completely missed my point: If Barbera beats Hayden, he will also have beaten Rossi which means that the bike Rossi and Hayden are on is not as good as the satellite Ducati - a situation I don't believe will exist once the racing starts.

Hayden has had the best results of anyone on the 800cc Ducati except Stoner and Rossi and he nearly matched Rossi. There is no evidence that anyone will do any better than him on the bike.

Barbera might, I repeat: might, be better than I estimated but he is nowhere near as fast as Hayden. His results in testing were a fluke and no reason to start reevaluating contracts.


Two flukes in a row! Wow, Barbera sure is a lucky bugger :) Your obvious poor opinion of Barbera's ability seems to be clouding your view of the results so far. He has never been running up front in MotoGP but he's never had the machinery to do it, he did have some excellent individual rides though. He also had no problem running towards the front in 250's against Jorge, so the guy can ride a bit.
"If Barbera beats Hayden, he will also have beaten Rossi which means that the bike Rossi and Hayden are on is not as good as the satellite Ducati".
Not sure I understand you here..
It doesn't necessarily follow that Barbera's bike is better or that Hayden will out ride Rossi. Barbera's team may be doing a better job of giving him a bike that suits him (which is conceivable), or maybe Hector is just riding really well. Maybe Hector doesn't just blame the bike and has taken a leaf out of Karels book and just rides what he has as fast as he can. Karel certainly upset the factory boys a few times last year in qualifying and he was riding scraps. So many possible reasons for Hector being faster.
If... and that's a big "IF".... he goes better than Rossi or Hayden, then I would say he is riding pretty bloody well and deserves some serious credit. Rossi and Hayden are fully suppported by the factory in every way and Barbera is riding on seconds, last years 1000 - with some up dates. Hardly something to be dismissed. I doubt very much he will go better than the factory team as Ducati have shown in the past (Haga in SBK) that they won't allow that to happen.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Upon1 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:23 pm

Bit of a stretch to say that if Barbera beats Harden he beats Rossi i think.

for my money i think Rossi Will be bounding the podium come Qatar.

with regards to sales of bikes and who's riding what...while i am a Stoner fan (don't turn off Tourn46! ;-) ) i never dreamed of owning a Ducati till last year when i saw the Streetfighter (p0rn!!! by the way!) and hope i can go ttrough my motorcycling life without another Honda (learnt on a vtr250)
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby JanBros on Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:48 pm

RatsMC wrote:You completely missed my point: If Barbera beats Hayden, he will also have beaten Rossi which means that the bike Rossi and Hayden are on is not as good as the satellite Ducati - a situation I don't believe will exist once the racing starts.

Hayden has had the best results of anyone on the 800cc Ducati except Stoner and Rossi and he nearly matched Rossi. There is no evidence that anyone will do any better than him on the bike.

Barbera might, I repeat: might, be better than I estimated but he is nowhere near as fast as Hayden. His results in testing were a fluke and no reason to start reevaluating contracts.


not entirly an objective post, is it :?: ;)
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Gustav O on Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:42 pm

Barbera had three laps in the 2.01s. Lorenzo hade 33 and 16 of them in his race simulation.

I really like Barbera, he si a bit of a nutter but that is part of the fun, but he has always had problems with consistency. He is fast but irratic and I doubt he will beat Hayden or Rossi when the season is done and dusted.
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Re: 2012 - Sepang II

Postby Cam D on Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:08 pm

I wonder if Dovi has a performance clause in his contract for up-date parts? Sounds a bit like it.
http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?langpair=auto|en&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&u=http://www.gp-inside.com/1174/01-mars-2012/sepang-reactions-andrea-dovizioso-cette-troisieme-place-est-capitale-pour-mon-avenir&usg=ALkJrhg7dtTowXRMnVvbcOjZaxiX7bZdBQ
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